First-time buyers will remain an endangered species for at least the next year, Rightmove reported this morning.
The site says its research shows that only 23% of people who intend to buy a home in the next 12 months will be buying for the first time – down from 26% a year ago.
The statistics compare with 40% pre-credit crunch.
The lesser spotted first-time buyer is daunted by the size of the deposit they expect to have to put down: 56% expect to have to pay over £20,000.
Nor does the endangered species think that buying a home is necessarily a sensible move: 61% of possible first-time buyers think property prices are unreasonably high.
Miles Shipside, director of Rightmove, said: “The first-time buyer remains an endangered species.
“With prospective first-time buyers even thinner on the ground than at this stage last year, sellers and their estate agents operating at the lower end of the market will need to fully understand the DNA of this group if they are to capture a sale.”
Rightmove’s latest study shows that the average age of someone planning to be a first-time buyer in 2012 will be 32 – a lot younger than commonly reported.
Shipside said: “There has been a lot of speculation about the average age of first-time buyers, and the truth is those who can are in their early thirties, while those who can’t are in their mid-thirties and counting.”
He said that many people currently renting were unable to raise the money for a deposit and faced having their dream of home ownership postponed until their forties at best.
The massive survey drew 12,829 responses, all potential buyers.
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Comments
"Why pay a window cleaner its just another non value adding cost?"
Please explain this statement, HC. Why is a window cleaner NOT a value-added cost?
Why pay a window cleaner its just another non value adding cost?
Chris - many migrant workers live in overpopulated rented accomodation, do not pay tax and send a large proportion of there wages home....guess why yup you got it to buy reasonably priced property.....and i dont blame them, but this does not seem to help the UK economy that much either.
Chris, ignore silly rantrave hes not from this world, I can't find a window cleaner.
Stinks of HPC'ers in here.
More posts from them than agents.
That benefit system in Holland is way too generous Chris compared to how things used to be in the States. In the 1930s there was no benefit system whatsoever. I think you'll find that did absolutely nothing to prevent the mass unemployment of that era.
Today's generous benefits in the UK do undermine the incentive to work. There have always been workshy people in every generation though and that will continue. High house prices are also a major disincentive to work. What's the easiest way for a young lady to get on today's housing ladder? I'll give you a clue - it involves sleeping around and buying a council house at half-price.
I can't vouch for the state of the windows in Peterborough. Round much of the UK though, if you picked up your bucket, you would very quickly discover which other windowcleaner's turf you were on and they would soon make your life very miserable.
If the economy really deteriorates, no-one on this site, EA or otherwise, can assume that their work ethic will get them through. I've known hardworking and entrepreneurial friends and family members who have been wiped out by economic factors totally beyond their control. There but for the grace of God go all of us.
Don't worry Dave, it will never happen because I'll be out cleaning windows or picking fruit and eaning a solid wage, because I'm not lazy!
I hope for your sake you never become unemployed
you'll be self harming within the week!
In Holland, unemployment benefit reduces by 10% each and every year after the first year to make it harder for people to live off the state. Benefits are meant to be a safety net, not a lifestyle.
Here in the East of the country we see a constant stream of Eastern Europeans arriving to take up jobs on the farms and in the agricultural factories and the jobs seem virtually limitless as more arrive the next week to fill them.
Yet drive past the Job centre most days and you see a long queue of native English people waiting to sign-on, while smoking & drinking cans of beer!!!
If they really wanted jobs, go and get one. Even in other parts of the country where jobs are less, it only costs £2 for a plastic bucket and a sponge. These people could start cleaning windows for a living and at £5 a house, could do very nicely thank you very much.
There is work out there if people want it, but oh no, they want nice cozy jobs where hard work is not required and the pay is good, else they might as well stay on benefits and chill out.
Our lost generation is happening because our kids have had it too easy and the welfare state is too generous. Cut welfare like the Dutch and when the unemployed are too hungry, living on the streets, they might actually do something about their situation and get their hands dirty! Here's hoping.
wardy
you are early 30's and you already sound like an old man
I believe that given the chance kids of today can work hard and do well,just as we started out when we were younger
trouble is...even if kids get a job today,they cannot buy a property or insure a car
I also think they are resigned to not being given a job and the job centre insist on a signed attendance form so they can get their 60 quid a week otherwise it gets stopped
perhaps you could take a few trainees on
rant you pillock I just did! Wake up left wing muppet!
I’m in my (early) 30's Sibleys and I have done nothing but work my arse off.
I was talking to a guy from our local removal firm the other day and he was telling me that he is looking for staff. He advertised on reed and the like a set up an interview day for 16 applicants. Of that 16, 11 just wanted a signature to say they had applied for a job and attended an interview with no interest in taking the position at all. Unbelievable.
No, no, no Rant you're looking at it all the wrong way.
This 20% of youth unemployed are simply just not trying hard enough otherwise they too would have a stake in society.
I mean, look at me, I bought my house in 1977 for a thrupenny bit and it's now worth over half a mil thanks to my business acumen and hard-working ethic.
The fact that the 20 and 30-somethings can't afford these prices is indicative of their absence of a can-do attitude.
Why, in my day blah blah blah.
It would be more correct if a lot of the posters on this site prefixed their general views with "In my opinion" instead of listing them as indisputable facts - which in most cases they are not.
Added by Get real on 2011-12-15 13:02:03
"That's partly whats wrong with our society, no one owes you a living, work for t, and if its still out a reach work even harder."
Would you tell that to the record number of young people currently out of work?
You turn coat dave.
'but I guess we just don't care about them really do we.'
One minute your gloating about estate agents going out of business the next your on a global campaign to make the world a better place. At least be a consistent idiot.
I care about it.I care that the very thing that dictates how a society is judged is a disgrace
how we treat our old and young
the skewed attitude of 'I'm alright jack' and the persuit of ridulous 'wealth' has created a terrible mess of huge proportions,much of which we have yet to see.
The least we can expect is to be able to debate such issues...at least the st pauls lot are trying to do something to create change..after all..all those anti globalisation 'mob' were actually right were they not?
its estimated that tens of thousands committed suicide over the credit crunch and many more died from stress after suffering financial ruin
but I guess we just don't care about them really do we.
Who cares anyway? Can't buy, rent, cant rent, move somewhere cheaper, can't move, live off the state, 1000s do or get a tent at St Pauls.
Could be worse you could be in Syria, Iran etc.
You got your cards, play them, moan or make your life change, no one else will do it for you. Posting endless twaddle on here like Rant FTB etc etc guess what, change nothing, zero.
That's partly whats wrong with our society, no one owes you a living, work for t, and if its still out a reach work even harder.
@dave
You may do better with a sandwich board and a megaphone. Better still, pitch up a tent outside st pauls?
the economy will survive 50%+ price falls just as it survives stockmarket crashes.
a crash in prices is needed to rebalance the economy and allow the species known as youth to grow the economy before we have a UK spring.
like all bubbles throughout history this one will burst and its a big one.
On a positive we will rethink the meaning of wealth and happiness and be a better society for it.
its going to happen so whats the point of propping it up?
Sorry this below is me just so anyone knos where to aim any criticisms!!
Very interesting posts by Jonnie and FTB Robyn
For anyone involved in finance and especially mortgage lending as I was from 1973 - 1992 it wasn't difficult to see this recession coming a mile off, because of the unsustainable borrowing levels. Probably the same vision was possessed by those involved in actual credit lending etc.
No it wasn't difficult to see the crisis coming, it was the Leahman and others fancy loan swaps that no-one knew about until the pyramid collapsed that eventually triggered it that no-one saw because even their own auditors and accountants didn't understand the mechanisms.
But that clown of a Chancellor Flash Gordon was doing tremendous damage for years and yet not only did no-one seem to realise it, but people actually lauded him as a great Chancellor.
The last great Chancellor we had was Ken Clarke who left the economy in good and improving shape only for Labour, as usual, to wreck it.
The house 'value' puzzle I set - no PoTW it wasn't quite that bad but the figure was £88,000 so a drop of £23K in 3 months or almost 21%
AIB - yes complete waste of time as in fact is the mortgage offer itself. Fine print on the back used to say 20 years ago it was only valid for three months and could be withdrawn at any time. We even used to issue a Letter of Intent which in the good old days when people waited three months in a queue (orderly) for their mortgage offer confirmed to all involved that one eventually would come out of the sausage machine.
PoTW care to guess how long it took from 15-9-88 for the same valuer to confirm to me that the value was back up to £111K?
All those rubbing hands with glee at the thought of 50+ price corrections should read carefully the posts from those who say what the outcome would be - mass unemployment and total financial collapse. So as I said before buy now if you actually need a home, otherwise when what you wish for comes true you won't have the job to be able to get the mortgage anyway.
Morrison's yesterday announce 7000 new jobs next year when unbelievably they plan to open 23 new stores. That's astonishing though I suppose we all do have to eat - but how many of those jobs will be full time and how many will be taken by people well over 50 and depserate for any job to help keep going until their pension eventually kicks in (assuming no global financial ruin otherwise no pension at all!!)
FTB Robyn is dead right - it is all very, very sad mainly because a lot of very decent people, their finances, relationships and families are going to get very badly hurt over the next two years - at least - and their futures at best blighted and for many ruined.
amazes me why people expect everyone to agree on DISCUSSION board
all views welcome imo
no need to announce you are off(flounce)..just don't post anymore
That's a reasonable attempt at a flounce there FBA although it doesn't quite have the gravitas you were anticipating.
All the best.
Fun Boy Agent: "HPC'ers still stinking up the room?"
Well there's not much to discuss on the agency front is there?
Overvalue to get a listing - promise the vendor the earth in terms of customer service 'we manage your transaction every step of the way to exchange of contracts' (reality - once an offer is received we forget about the sale unless a problem is brought to our attention) - stick the property on Rightmove - arrange a few viewings - put forward an offer - few phone calls blah blah - job done.
Times are hard, big deposits required for FTBs - market activity low ... what else is there to say?
HPC'ers still stinking up the room?
Pointless
Not worth interacting with them. I give up. Not enough Agents post here anymore. The site in my opinion has been hijacked and is no longer much use to me.
Negotiator forum here I come
I give in, you HPC'ers keep EAT for yourselves
Fully respect and understand that post Jonnie. Spot on post from FTBRobyn too which is an excellent summary. You are right. Any HPCers gloating about the current state of the economy are missing the obvious point. It's like the polar bear jumping about on the melting iceberg, saying he was right all along about Global Warming. He'll end up the same way as the others - small victory.
It was Sibley's BC who works in public sector recruitment (and he was realistic about the employment situation). I do not cheer anybody losing their job - EA or otherwise. I wish that the necessary steps were taken back in the past to have avoided the mess the country is now in. Had house prices been left in the inflation figures, interest rates would have gone up much, much earlier and seen off the bubble. Instead, the opposite happened and it was fed like never before. Now we're staring at the brink of an economic abyss - a situation that in my opinion was completely avoidable.
I am in the fortunate situation of very secure employment right now. In respect of others that are not, I don't shout about that.
Something else to consider - someone in their late 20s / early 30s, on a reasonable salary but with a young family, is presently struggling to buy a suitable home. They have been dealt a poor hand no matter how they try to play it. From that perspective, an economic reset would at worst deliver a similar situation in the medium-term. After the hardship of another recession, it might ultimately deliver a better hand though through lower house prices.
Jonnie
I'm not an HPCer although I share many of their views (and I sometimes lurk there, as I sometimes lurk here). But I thought I'd answer anyway.
I think what appears to be 'support for the collapse of the economy' actually comes from a grim sense of inevitability and of being proved right. If you were saying back in 2003/4 (as a few nuttoids were, including me) that we're in a massive housing bubble, that debts (personal and national) were getting unsustainable, that middle class lifestyles were entirely based on debt, that high housing costs were destroying the wider economy etc, you were generally laughed at, and then patronised for deciding not to get on the property 'ladder' yet, even though all your friends were busy getting 110% mortgages.
So you wait, and you wait, and governments around the world (but especially Britain) chuck every last ounce they have at keeping the whole thing going, in an attempt to thwart the basic laws of economics. Then when it goes pop, the government steps in to subsidise over-leveraged homeowners and leaves this small, debt-averse band of saver-renters high and dry (they're now paying taxes which go towards paying others' mortgages in the form of SMI, and they're paying the mortgage of their probably overstretched landlord who didn't have the sense to notice we were in a bubble, and they're losing interest on their deposit savings while mortgage rates fall to 300 year lows, and they're dealing with inflation due to the devaluing of the pound which has been done to support low interest rates for the indebted). So you go onto a few forums to let off steam :)
Basically, what I'm saying is renter-saver types are upset. While I try not to celebrate economic bad news (and I'm giving up my sofa to a repossessed friend and a lot of my deposit savings to my struggling, over-mortgaged sister, for example), I knew this recession was coming back in 2004. And I knew that the fact that 'they' wouldn't let it happen then would make it far worse and far deeper when it did finally come.
So, to my mind, what's happening now was a) inevitable, due to gross misconduct by the banks and politicians b) a necessary resetting of all the earlier debt-binging and c) very, very sad.
And, yes, you're right that now it looks like the crack up of the economy will cost a lot of people their jobs, including HPCers. While some of them may seem to gloat as everything gets worse, I think they're mostly just angry - they just wanted house prices to be vaguely in line with historical norms (vs income), not financial armageddon.
jonnie
its a very good point re employment....I feel the kids these days have become disillusioned...insuring a car is 3000 pounds plus
they are being penalised on every front...I don't feel this is sustainable or beneficial to society..after all traditionally each new generation grows the economy in a positive way.
I do remember however that in middle 90's you could buy flats around 20-30,000 within the m25...yet no-one wanted to buy them as people could afford houses
the same properties are trying to get 180-200,000 but wages have only increased 57%
something has to give
OK - Does anybody think we are approaching times when when significant numbers of young people cannot afford to buy OR rent suitable accomodation? If so what does this mean for the UK
I don't want to think about it as i am a Happy Chappy but i think POTW may well be right years of stagnation lower volumes etc exactly what EA's dont want!
FBA - Nice work on the sale ....what is the longest amount of time you have had one of your clients properties on the market? and why has it not sold?
Dave
Yup, clever you…………………………………….
So when all you predict happens………yeah? Well once all of that has taken place are you sure your kids will be in employment or at least stable enough employment and able to get a mortgage?
And you can skip all the wake up stuff mate its nothing to do with being asleep it’s an issue your kids will be facing and an issue you haven’t responded to.
And, just before it all kicks off about me being an EA with a BTL portfolio and wanting higher prices, I flogged the BTL in June 2007 and flogged my big gaff in Jan 2008 so I don’t mind lower prices from a personal point of view and from a business aspect everyone, HPC, EA’s the lot all agree that lower prices will mean higher transactional volumes – that suits me fine, although the old lettings bit will drop off and the girls will be back selling not letting
Anyway Dave – what’s your view on the employment issue?
Jonnie
jonnie
I own a farm outright...I post here because my kids want to get a stake in society
reasons for a housepricecrash
1/tight credit
2/rising unemployment
3/houseprices at historically high price to wages
4/very leveraged buy to let market
5/austerity measures in place
even with near zero interest rates prices are falling..as they fall further supply will increase pushing prices down further..eventually when they have fallen 30-40% ftbs will be offered 90-100% mortgages and buy rather than rent...then the btl market will implode pushing prices down further
wake up
Rant,
Im going to aim this at you as you are a prolific poster here and seem to be a balanced representation of the HPC guys. Although replies from any HPC’ers will be welcome / expected
Ive had a peep at the HPC website and looked at the comments on various articles and also looked at what’s been posted recently here
What I am not getting is the apparent support for a collapse in the economy, something you see as the route to the substantial drops in house prices you are waiting for – I know why you want lower prices, so you can get more house for your money etc, fair enough, we have some horrid retailers hitting the skids, Barratt shoe shops being one (don’t the poor buy their shoes from Primark and Asda now? – could be the reason?) Public sector jobs are finally being lost by the bus full and this sector is now having its recession 3 years after the rest of us and other various bits of bad news continue to delight the HPC’ers.
We have the inflation linked way of calculating price drops which is helping you out a bit, next years inflation will be interesting but for now it’s working okay to factor in the 5% and all that.
But, im still lost as to what you will all do if the economy cracks enough to shift house prices down as far as your own jobs go? Rant, I recall that you are in Public Sector Recruitment? – not a great market to be in right now as I assume your ‘clients’ aren’t recruiting much right now and your bosses are looking closely at the P&L and forecast for next year?
So, if the bad news does keep coming bringing with it the collapse in the house market how do you see the impact on your own jobs? We have lots of odd HPC’ers on here jeering about EA’s going bust mainly from people that are supporting our income well by renting (the invisible housing boom we are making a mint out of) but putting aside which side of the argument we are all on what you seem to hope for to achieve what you desire could well see you out of work
…………it’s everybody’s recession including yours and even if a nice three bed in the West Midlands is much cheaper than today will you actually be able to take advantage?
Jonnie
@IO
PoTW = Puzzled of Tunbridge Wells (perhaps it should be Getting a bit lazy of Tunbridge Wells ;o)
AIP = mortgage agreement in princliple (subject usually to credit checks, underwriting and survey - so is often not worth even the paper it is written on)
My guess is £65k?
Sorry that should read "devout Christians" they didn't eat children, abnd to this day remain good friends. Meant to mention as well particulars never were printed because houses sold so fast in july 1988 - remember that era all you estate agents reading here?!!!
Go on have a guess - what value do you reckon compared to £111K actually probably 16 weeks earlier11 weeks earlier end May - mustn't exaggerate myself (like PoTW)
@PoTW
What do your initials stand for. And can someone tell me what an AIP is and how it relates to a FTB (that acronym I do get).
Right here's a fact for you PoTW
I wish it has taken 18 months for 40% or whatever falls in 1988.
I moved from Portsmouth to a nice area north of Southamopton and on 6th July 1988 completed at £111,000 on a house that had come on the market 2 months earlier at 3pm one Thursday, I viewed it at 5pm and at 3pm next day when my wife had seen it (I should really be Anonymous Coward!!) bought it. Luckily I weorked for Nationwide, was a cash buyer with free bridging, the vendors were devour Christians so never thought of gazumping me as two other bastards before them had, and they had their mortgage with Nationwide in Winchester.
So it held together.
Sepotember 15th out of curiosity because the world was caving in I asked iur staff surveyor for an updated valuation.
Let's play a guessing game, this was about 11 weeks (not 18 months!!) after he had first vaslued it. Go on guess what valuation he then put on it
So the HPC crowd hope to see a ‘crash’... further drops in UK house prices
They bore us EA’s with their whisperings on here, and I don’t know why!
They obviously do not understand the role of estate agents in the buying/selling process. If they did they would be twittering elsewhere. We do not mind higher or lower prices, we just seek a steady healthy market, price not important.
In saying that:
I keep seeing reports that indicate the little green shoots of recovery, the recovery when it comes will start in London and spread from there. It will not start ooop North. I keep asking, is it now or is this a seasonal blip?
Before you crap on about it Mr HPC'er, I dont care, it makes no difference to me, its a rhetorical question.
If the HPC'ers are right, good on them. Prices will fall and their wait will be justified. If they read it wrong, their wait will come to nought.
Calling the market bottom of any falling or fallen market is a difficult task, and it's most often spotted in the rear-view mirror once the market is on the way up again.
Waiting for the absolute bottom to hit before buying puts HPC'ers at risk of missing it and getting caught up in a market on the upswing. Plus, for some first-time home buyers, owning simply makes better economic sense than renting. I doubt that now is a wrong time to buy, as long as you can afford it.
I believe HPC'ers need to ask themselves, “How greedy do I need to be?" If prices go down much more and start looking very attractive, they must consider other people trying to buy the same property they are after, even if it's not the absolute bottom of the market. What if they spot the prefect house at the right money, is that the bottom of the market?... and... If that happened, the HPC’ers might end up in a bidding war against others, erasing the savings they thought they had achieved by waiting. These HPC people could end up with no property and looking at a rising market at the end of the long wait and moan. How sad will that look?
How much % will they save by waiting? 1%, 2%, 3%.. I do wonder? And will it be worth it. Some call 20% and others 50% drops. Oh my word, how silly... To this I say “Land Prices”. In the UK we have a fictitious supply and demand scenario based on the non calculable effect of local councils not willing to grant planning permissions. This produces a certain amount inelasticity in house pricing. That cannot be avoided and is why our market cannot be compared with the US, Japan and Ireland. Free house available on building plot? Is this where they see the market?
How many times do I say these 2 things?
Do something unusual, buy a property because you want to live in it and can afford it, not because you want to make money out of it.
EA's do not mind if house prices rise or fall, please stop pestering us with your HPC thoughts, go to your own website... please.
Dave: "history says bubbles always burst...in japan prices are still 40% lower than 1991 in actual terms(NOT inflation adjusted)
no reason why the same will not happen here"
Still harping on about the 'no-comparison with most other economies' Japan.
I agree with your sentiments but not your reasoning.
The bubble that will one day burst is the one you are living in. We are 3 years into a credit crunch and still no sign of significant price falls - virtually none in my area.
In 1988/1990 ish it took about 18 months for the areas of the country that had endured a boom to see house prices go down 30 - 40%.
The outlook is grim. But you are not going to get your price falls. Before you get your price falls you will find you cannot get money out of a cash machine - because the falls you foresee will take the banking system with them.
A long period of static house prices - a gradual de-leveraging by the banks - inflation - and a generation forced to rent all their lives - until the parents do the decent thing and die and hand the equity over - that is what we face.
Not 40% falls in property prices.
@supra rant
“Rant you showed your understanding with.............
100% deposits, not 100% loans. What would happen to UK house prices if it became illegal to buy a property with borrowed money?”
I do not understand either, what’s wrong about that question? What do you think would happen?
@Fun Boy Agent
“Dear Mr FTB Dan, is your EA friend a business owner or Corporate Manager? That sounds like Corporate speakie to me !!”
Manages the 4th site of a 3 man partnership. I am not sure if 4 offices is enough to be considered corporate on these boards, but no he is not an owner. We have often talked about him opening his own EA. Potentially with me offering some backing, another reason why I read these boards. However, just now is probably not the time to do that. Depending on how RM develops, 5-10 year time might be. If estate agents go the way of the travel agents obviously that would be unattractive. Or maybe they will just make him a partner, who knows.
The continuous ping-pong discussions/opinions regarding the FTB together with the "rights & wrongs" of the market and house prices would seem to have passed their sell-by date by some months and have now become the most repetitive/boring of late 2011.
Let us not exclude them, (as if that would happen!) but hope that a broader range of topics is on the menu for 2012?
Rant you showed your understanding with.............
Added by rantnrave on 2011-12-07 12:30:56
100% deposits, not 100% loans. What would happen to UK house prices if it became illegal to buy a property with borrowed money?
Come on give us yer next nonsence, need a new laugh at yer boy!
1, Pipe line is steadily increasing since our start in 2007.
2, Isold has not sold a single thing in within a 20 mile radius of our office. Our next office is opening feb next year
3, The business has no debt apart from our original start up costs which both directors have underwritten.
4, My personal property was bought 13 years ago and the mortgage is tiny. In a london suburb and could half in value and still wouldn’t see me in negative equity.
5, I welcome increased legistration and ultimately think agency needs regulating.
6, All those people outside my window must be ghosts. Do ghosts Christmas shop?
6 accounts of being wrong and miss informed in one post there dave. Must be a record.
fun boy agent
I see I hit a nerve..if you are so minted why bother going to work?
wardy
sorry you think I'm a horrible little g*t!...all I'm doing is posting my views on a free discussion board.Estate agents will be hit many fold so start getting prepared
1/reduced sales pipeline turn reducing cashflow
2/increased competition from internet sites(some free)
3/inability to service business debt
4/personal anxiety over their own property interests
5/increased legislation
6/demise of the high street
good luck,but I expect a rough rise for all agents for the next 20 years
Dear Mr Rant,
Firstly, not all buyers are FTB’ers, you must be clear on this point before thinking from an EA perspective.
When you set out in any business your aim is to achieve a profit. In a service industry you sell your service to achieve your gross and then extract your costs to show either a profit or a loss, week to week, month to month, year to year.
EA business model tends to work on ‘no slale, no fee’ basis.
We need buyers who CAN AND WILL buy, and vendors who WILL sell. It is not rocket science. Good agents will know when, who and what to do business with to achieve their profits. I cannot go down to the bank with a bunch of HPC’ers posts and get money out with them.
Synopsis:
This over the last 2 weeks on one of my clients.
Valued 3 bed semi recently £375k, correct fig
Owner thought worth more £395k, too much
Agreed to go on mkt £389k, still too much
Proceedable buyer offered £360, rejected, too low
Non proceedable buyer offered £368, accepted
Stayed on market, reduced to £375k, closer to non-offer
Proceedable buyer offered £365, accepted
Non proceedable buyer @ £368 informed and unhappy.
Non proceedable buyer goes under offer 2 days later
Non proceedable buyer is now proceedable
Increases offer to £375k to get previous buyer off pot.
Previous buyer very unhappy, but wont increase.
Full asking price achieved (The correct one)
This all over 2 weeks: With...
Very happy Vendor
1 Happy buyer
1 very, very, very unhappy buyer too.
Doing my job Sir, that is how I overcome.
Dear Mr FTB Dan, is your EA friend a business owner or Corporate Manager? That sounds like Corporate speakie to me !!
FTB's without AIP's are our bread and butter as half of our firm offers mortgage advice. FBA is so right about the ones that won’t discuss it and we still see an amazingly large amount of FTBers that have no idea what they can borrow or whether an underwriter would look at them at all. Ironically the ones who refuse to discus their finances (because there’s usually nothing to discuss) are the same 'buyers' that will only view on sundays, will not return a call for feedback and mostly don’t turn up for the viewing in the first place.
p.s dave, you sound like a horrible little g*t. I hope the next unfortunate EA that has to deal with you tells you where to poke it. The majority of EA's that are in business now will still be here next year. The chaff have all ready shut up shop.
Someone posted on here recently (sorry, can't quite recall who) that in this environment EAs do not need more houses to sell, they need to sell more houses.
FBA - there are several EAs on this site who have made posts outlining how they spot and avoid vendors looking for unrealistic prices in today's economic environment, enabling them to avoid having to pay the expenses of marketing their property.
It's the flipside of your point. There are of course two sides to a market - buyers and sellers. Buyers that haven't got funds in order are as useless as sellers that refuse to accept prices are not where they were at the peak.
You've outlined how you would deal with the former. What's your strategy for dealing with the latter?
@rantnrave,
A friend of mine who is an EA used to tell me during the boom years that getting stock was the hardest thing to do, everything else more or less took care of itself. These days it’s all about finding buyers I am told. I guess not all agents have yet got themselves out of the boom times mentality.
Dear Rant,
A potential FTB is only a potential FTB’er if they have funds arranged, if they do not they are a browser at best and a more probably a time waster.
As for your thought that every single property in private ownership was purchased in 2007 shows your mentality too. What an idiotic statement. You, like your matie Dave, need to get a grip on reality matie.
Dear Dave,
Thank you for you input.
Unfortunately you seem to have a lopsided and jaded view of the world at large that may just be clouding your judgement, that is if you have any judgement at all, I can see no evidence of it in your posts.
No matter what the market does in respect of prices, they may fall, they may rise, there will always be a stark difference between a dreamer and a buyer. As Estate Agents we earn our money from finding and nurturing buyers, we earn absolutely nothing by pandering to dreamers. A rise or fall in prices will not make one iota of difference to that fact. No you do not throw viewings at your clients to ‘see what sticks’. Do you have any idea how it makes a client feel? Tidy up your house, buy the flowers, get the coffee on, get the bread in the oven? Just to find your agent turned up with a waster?
Get a grip sunshine. Spout your drivel elsewhere.
As for bailiffs coming for me.
I owe nothing to no-one, no mortgage, no loans, so no bailiffs. My business has consistently done well, even this year. Just this month I have banked more than I could imagine and I am grateful for it, believe me. I see no prospect of that changing in the early part of next year with a healthy pipeline going into new year, good stock just coming on (6 new instructions this week), promise of more stock in the new year, a thriving letting's side to the business.
Get a grip man.
You know nothing about me, your comment is utterly stupid and no help to anyone whatsoever.
@Anonymous Coward
"FTB (Dan are you still there?) sitting at home (rented or with mum & dad) thinking I would LIKE to buy. "
AC, yes I am still here reading from time to time. I very rarely bother to post anymore as a few unfortunate individuals seem to have a consuming hatred for me and I really can’t be bother getting sucked into an argument with morons, and besides, I take the view that this site is more informative to the mindset of an EA if they are left to discuss amongst themselves. Not sure why my circumstances are of any real interest to you, but I don’t have any particular issue in revealing so why not.
I am renting half a house from a developer friend who has multiple houses, he has the other half of the house for when he is in London, which is not that often, so I am getting a very reasonable deal. Married last year, and will be looking to have children in the next few years. As a result will be interested in a small family home, a flat is a total non-starter. I know a number of you think that all FTB’ers should start with a 1 bed flat and ‘work up’, but that is not how I see things. I earn well above the national average, although probably about average within London finance jobs. Indeed, with my existing savings and a 3.5x multiple of my earnings alone (wife is a nurse, so not well paid) I could actually buy a very small 2 bed family home with a garden on the London/Kent boarder in a nice area right now if I wanted. However, for reasons I have gone into many times I feel the prices will come down. Right now I am adding to my savings at about £1,000pm, so a combination of reducing prices and increasing savings means that I expect to be able to afford perhaps medium sized family home, possibly even one on the nicest estates, if both trends continue.
Given that I am perfectly happy where i am, that I have been vindicated in my belief that prices will decline and they continue to do so, I have no reason to rush out to buy now. I admit that I will probably buy in the next 18 months irrespective that I expect further falls, simply because of the family situation.
P.S now that I have posted we can obviously expect a cloned post tomorrow morning offending as many people as possible as has happened the last three times.
Potential FTB showing interest in buying: Turf them out of the building
Let me guess...
Kiteflying vendor looking for 20% above the price they bought in 2007: Roll out the red carpet
those days are gone...in the next 12 months you'll be begging people for viewings and throwing things at the wall to see if they stick
then worrying when the baliffs are coming round to yours
Be an ECO Agent, save petrol, paper and phone calls.
Dear Friends
Go back to basics, remember pre Internet anyone?
As an agent you need to qualify ‘applicants’, remember those? Remember how to do it?
There are a whole raft of people out there who refer to themselves as First Time Buyers, when, in fact, they are nothing of the sort. They may be watching the market, they may be fiddling around pressing buttons on Rightmove, they may even darken the door of a few Estate Agents to view properties they have no intention of buying. You even find a few on here spouting off about ‘the market’ My advice to Estate Agents would be,..... do the green thing and do not pander to them. THEY ARE NOT BUYERS.
When you agree with your client you will offer their property for sale, explain to the client your method of weeding these individuals out of the system, it will do both you, your business and your client good. Less viewing's, more sales.
Please remember, neither you nor your client is too worried if the eventual buyer is FTB, BTL, Russian, Chinese, Indian, American, 2nd time buyer, 3rd time buyer, downsizer or even a UK resident looking for a home, as long as the offer is the correct figure and can proceed. Non proceedable applicants will blight your business if you pander to them.
When someone claiming to be a FTB makes contact with you, QUALIFY THEM PROPERLY. Go back to basics. You will ask them if they have funds arranged and they will say yes (they always do). DO NOT LEAVE IT THERE, keep asking questions. Who do you have your AIP with? Check it out, What % did you get offered? When does your AIP expire? What deposit are you thinking of putting down? Do you have spare cash for ‘doing up?’ What is your budget? If you are satisfied with the answers, add them to your list of prospective buyers and show them property. If they are elusive with answers you can bet your bottom dollar they are a watcher not a buyer and will waste your time, petrol, paper, postage and phone bill. DO NOT DO IT. With the expense of running an agency these days it does not allow you the financial luxury of fluffing around the fantasies of these people. The 'elusive' applicant who does not want to give 'personal detail' is using that excuse as a smoke screen. If they are genuine buyers, genuinely interested in a property you are advertising, they will provide this information. Trust me on this, I learnt it over a long time.
THINK!
Is the contact from a genuine FTB’er or is it a wannabe looker?
If you get this right you will get more sales at less cost, and trust me on this too, you will listen to less ‘bleating’ from people running down your clients homes. Wannabe lookers will (if you ever make contact with them again, because most will duck your calls after the initial viewing) give you bad feedback for your client, no matter what. They go into 'face saving' mode, their defence at this stage is to run the property down.
When the 'wannabes' contact you. politely direct them back to Rightmove to see the lovely houses on offer, ask them to make contact with you when they have funds arranged. At that point they become a buyer.
As Wardy points out, HPC'ers are not buyers, they are bored and boring.
the big thing that is going to happen is astonishly large price falls.
all the evidence is there...when you read that our kids are an endangered species who cannot buy and buy to let are doing them a favour so our kids can pay off their mortgage...then you know something is very very wrong
history says bubbles always burst...in japan prices are still 40% lower than 1991 in actual terms(NOT inflation adjusted)
no reason why the same will not happen here
What is happening in a year's time that means that FTBs will be around them?
I wonder why Rightmove think FTBs will be an endangered species for at least the next year? On the basis of the current global/domestic economic situation, globalization in general, lack of wage inflation, lots of price inflation, consumer debt, government debt, the inevitable potential of interest rate rises .... strikes me FTBs will be an engangered species for a generation.
Unless something big happens, of course.
Reasonable point Wardy. I've yet to read one of Shipside's releases which, in my eyes, isn't a coded message to EAs about overvaluing. RM's customers are EAs and if they go out of business due to low transactions, then RM is up the creek too (note for the EAToday crowd - yes, RM will probably hike up their fees to compensate any loss, but that just adds more pressure to EA's finances).
"If the average FTBer is 32 (with BOMAD help) or 37 (without parental assistance), then they are not going to be looking to buy traditional FTB properties."
True, but surely more must be done to encourage younger FTBs who could buy traditional starter homes, i.e. two bed terraces or flats below the £125k stamp duty threshold - and not just leave them to B2Lers. This would change the demographics of an FTB, and the industry should be advertising that FTBs can buy with 10% or even 5% deposits equating to anything from £6k - £13,000.
I know that many HPCers will argue that FTBs shouldn't be encouraged into debt, but I feel that whilst there will be further falls in house prices, we aren't too far from the bottom of the curve and that something needs to be done to stimulate the bottom of the market.
anonymouse coward
houseprices are likely to fall much more than 20%....more likely 40% and 50-60% for flats.
if prices fall 20% and you buy another cash,you will be struggling to find a tenant,rents will fall and prices will continue to fall as btl portfolios are liquidated and ftb buy rather than rent
best put your money in the bank..I actual negotiated 4.49% which is safer and better than property return
houseprices may fall for 15-20 years...the present bubble is bursting and it will bring pain to anyone with a mortgaged portfolio...when they get repossessed they will come after your family home and bankrupt you
@ r 'n' r - Spot on, methinks. Could this see the end of the ridiculous "starter-home" scam? I've often wondered why anyone over the age of 21 would be interested in buying one of those ghastly little shoeboxes. After all, they are about as "homely" as living in a student hall of residence. FTBs saving up to buy a "proper" home instead? Common sense at last!
This maybe the story to stay clear of today because I think I can see where this thread is going. I shall give it a chance.
Somebody pointed out the other day (PeeBee maybe ?) that RM stats, taken from users of their site, should be taken with a pinch of salt. Users of rightmove are not necessarily 'buyers'. Our HPC friends are evidence of this along with all the people who sit there browsing out of shear boredom. (me included sometimes) Shipside takes his 'research' adds a bit of spin, points out the blatantly obvious and we end up with the above press release. If anything these stats prove how many non buyers use the site and how much of our CTR is actually nonsense.
I am an agent outside London, so forgive my off-hand negativity but...
FTB (Dan are you still there?) sitting at home (rented or with mum & dad) thinking I would LIKE to buy.
Either:
1. Sees news and thinks "No thanks".
2. Sees news, thinks "What the hell - why not" and goes to see parents for help with his/her deposit who say "No thanks".
3. Sees news, thinks "What the hell" and goes to see parents for deposit who say "Why not" and then applies to bank for mortgage who say "No thanks".
4. Sees news, gets deposit, arranges mortgage, has a survey which says "No thanks"
5. Sees news, gets deposit & mortgage, survey OK, vendor of property can't find.
Or
6. Actually buys a property.
There is no surprise that the "FTB" is elusive.
Property prices are static but values are falling.
Rents appear to have peaked (25% rise in the last 2 years - the pips are squeaking where I work...) although prices might continue to rise in the Spring.
If I was a first time buyer, I would wait...
I am a landlord (with no mortgages - so I guess I am lucky - but I did work quite hard to do it) and would truly love prices to return to their long term historic trend value, which would be about 20% off where we are today.
I would then be able to buy some more (without taking out stupid LTV mortgages) and rent them out too.
If the average FTBer is 32 (with BOMAD help) or 37 (without parental assistance), then they are not going to be looking to buy traditional FTB properties. Those seem to increasingly be BTL territory now. Most likely today's FTBers have their own family and are looking to buy for the security that brings. They will therefore be looking at family homes, not apartments. £220,000 would certainly be the current figure for a family home in the South East, Cambridge, Oxford etc. That's how I understand it IO.
Sorry it's early and doubtless my maths that is wrong but assuming the average deposit needed remains at 20% which in my view, as an average, looks likely, then this 56% must be expecting a massive price crash.
If the £20,000 they deposit is indeed 20% of the loan then they are expecting to borrow £100,000 andmust be expecting to buy, on average, at a price of £120,000
Or as I say is my maths wrong?
If their £20K is only a 10% deposit then they are expecting to borrow £200K and buy at £220,000.
Average FTB buying at £220K?
Someone correct my maths please. Or am I right and RM should just stick to the knitting and simply be a vehicle for advertising properties and their prices and stop trying to analyse them and the market generally?