Online estate agents will wipe out over 7,000 high street estate agency offices across the UK over the next few years.
The prediction has come – not too surprisingly – from an online agent.
Adam Day, of Hatched, says that currently, online agents have a market share of between 2% and 5%, having “grown from literally nothing just eight years ago”.
He forecasts that by the end of 2015 their market share will be between 10% and 15%, and rise to between 60% and 70% by 2020, signalling the demise of 7,000 high street branches.
Day said: “To counter this growth, high street estate agents will start to move their operations ‘upstairs’ or begin to offer a menu of services, or ‘lite’ versions, to try and compete with the new breed of online estate agents.”
In other forecasts, Day says that he does not believe that private sales sites will gain traction, but does believe that the likes of Tesco could enter the market.
He said: “Recent government legislation changes to the Estate Agents Act and the Property Misdescriptions Act will result in more private house sale sites. However, I do not expect these sites to have a significant impact on the market as they still require access to the main property portals to find buyers. And, if they cannot find buyers, they do not have a business!
“I also predict that some big names in retail may try to become intermediaries due to the new changes to the Estate Agents Act. However, as with private house sale sites, the key to success is access to the big property portals which, for now anyway, will not be granted.
“That said, for enough money the portals would likely change their minds. If this happened, it would blow the whole property market wide open and accelerate the demise of the high street agent even quicker than predicted.”
Day added that Agents’ Mutual looks like being a serious player in the portals market.
He said: “It could have a profound effect on the dominant position of the key property portals.
“If Agents’ Mutual’s numbers are to be believed, then they are going to make a serious dent in one or other of the property portals subscriptions. If Agents’ Mutual comes to fruition in 2014, we predict that Zoopla will be the biggest loser.”
On house price rises for next year, Day is forecasting up to 7% across England and Wales, with double digit increases in London and the south-east.
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Comments
Are you still visiting THIS page, Mr Wells?
Happy New Year to you!
Needless to say, I'm disappointed that you ducked out of the other discussion. Hopefully that was a one-off and the stamina and exuberance you generally radiate will continue throughout 2014.
Congratulations on your "Sale and purchase agreed" over the festive period, by the way.
One question - exactly WHAT IS a "Sale AND purchase"? You either agreed a sale OR negotiated a purchase, surely? You can not do both.
As you are the vendor's Agent, I assume that the former applies.
But there's me, splitting hairs as usual! ;o)
Mr Wells...
Rather than 'hitting the wall' - I think that tis conversation is only just beginning! ;o)
I would suggest, however, that we will be carrying it on (much to the displeasure of others I have no doubt...) wherever our posts cross in future.
I also have little doubt hat my 'conscience' will pop up at the appropriate time by some miracle of coincidence.
Looks like the next crossing of swords could be on today's page 1!
See you there, mon brave... ;o)
PeeBee...
Have we both hit the wall with regards to this thread and now waiting for another juicy thread to arrive courtesy of an online or hybrid agent?
Hope business is good...
I have no doubt whatsoever that "PeeBee's Conscience" is lurking - I'm just unsure under what guise he will next post!
Whatever it is - he needs to be more accurate in his self-naming, as "...Conscience" is a clear misnomer. I have made it perfectly clear - and maintain - that I have no 'conscience' to prick when it comes to my postings on EAT.
Conscience requires guilt.
Good evening Mr Bee, I've been expecting you...
Maybe your conscience is still lurking and I too look forward to his or her reply (let's not presume PeeBee - first rule of sales, never presume) to my post.
What is reasonable travelling distance for Harwell Estates...
I am happy to travel 50 - 75 miles in order to service a client but as I have stated before, it's not what I want, it's what my clients want.
If a client wants fully accompanied viewings on demand (rather than open house once a week or every other week) and they live 75 miles away then it would be fair to say that is not within reasonable travelling distance and I hate to say it, but we may turn the instruction down.
If however a client wants Rightmove and web based representation and they are happy to do their own viewings then I would be more than happy to travel 75 miles to take instructions. I would act as the intermediary and from a distance offer the same service as a High Street agent. I would also be more than happy to visit my client once a month to discuss progress with them.
I would also do some canvassing in the area while I was there to make my journey even more worth while...
On the subject of Hatched...
I would recommend them purely because I have friends in the South who have used them and they said they were great and did exactly what they said they were going to do.
And they paid less in fees than they would have done had they used a High Street agent!
Fair comments all round...
Oh... I wish my 'conscience' was still lurking - I would have loved to know what HE made of your post, Mr Wells!
"If you are still looking for an agent, Harwell Estates will be more than happy to oblige if you live within reasonable traveling distance from Harwell HQ which is near Northallerton!"
Hmmm... firstly - define "reasonable travelling distance" to us all.
Secondly - WHY must it be within said "reasonable travelling distance"?
"If you don't we strongly recommend H******..."
WHY do you recommend them?
PeeBee...
Increasing stock - Yes!
Putting more boards up - Yes!
Increasing brand awareness - Yes!
Does a crowd usually attract a crowd - Yes!
Will we sell it - of course we will!
That instruction also means that in the last four weeks Harwell Estates (3) have taken on the same number of properties as George F. White (3), two more than Norman F. Brown (1), Three more than GSC Grays (0) and three more than Robin Jessop - all of whom are very well established agents and all are located on Bedale High Street...
I don't like to mention names but sometimes you just have to do it - sorry chaps!
As I have said before - whether you charge upfront fees or a traditional percentage, those instruction numbers simply don't work...
Especially if you have to support the running costs of a High Street office!
A very quick message for the "potential client" poster...
If you are still looking for an agent, Harwell Estates will be more than happy to oblige if you live within reasonable traveling distance from Harwell HQ which is near Northallerton!
If you don't we strongly recommend Hatched...
www.harwellestates.co.uk
Have a super weekend all!
OI!! How come I'm not a chap?? :o(
Thanks for the update - albeit a tad late! Maybe you were waiting for all the recent 'handbags at ten paces' to calm down
I already knew of this instruction (and, of course, no doubt you knew that I would know...)
"Why might that be...
Could it be that estate agency in Bedale is changing...?"
It COULD be. The proof will be in seeing the "For Sale" turn to "Sold".
Until then, you are simply increasing stock - are you not? Remember my comments on "The Numbers Game"...
You said "watch this space"... I AM!
PeeBee ;o)
Afternoon chaps and PeeBee...
I thought I would just drop in after a few days of very much keeping myself to myself and spring this little gem on you!
Check out our latest instruction in Bedale...
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-41885569.html
Four agents on Bedale High Street - not even one was given the opportunity (by our new clients) to roll up, offer their services and pitch for the business!
Why might that be...
Could it be that estate agency in Bedale is changing with Harwell Estates?
How do you like those strawberries...
Have a great weekend!
"I know that big ego will mean you'll want to have the last word..."
Not ego - just love peeing on your firework! ;o)
ON THAT NOTE... the last word:
Zyzomys.
"NO - I didn't. I haven't. I won't. "
Spoiled child springs to mind!
"Let's look at what I ACTUALLY said"
I wasn't going to come back again SIR, but I can't let you get away with that one, what you ACTUALLY said was very clear, and as you wrote it, I have to confess some amazement that you don't understand your OWN words.
...."And... most importantly... who am I to say whether you are wrong or right?
You are right. Your call. End of.".........
What's not to understand.
Oh and sorry about the spelling mistake, it was rather late!
"I'll just remind you that you gave up in the end..."
NO - I didn't. I haven't. I won't.
"...and had to admit that it was their business, and you had no right to make judgement on them."
Let's look at what I ACTUALLY said: "You are the business owner - you have previously clearly stated that you don't expect to knock doors out of walls from day one - I therefore trust that you are happy with the way things are currently growing. And... most importantly... who am I to say whether you are wrong or right?
You are right. Your call. End of."
Actually, on reflection, I was wrong to say that.
Only the history books will tell whether he was wrong or right. I will be watching.
And, before you jump on that and blurt out that I am clearly awaiting doom to befall my colleague in industry, again from my many previous posts to him : "Don't get me wrong, Sir - I am actually NOT knocking your 'success'. You and your counterparts are filling a niche I the market that was created for you... But you ARE a niche. Be the best at what you do."
"Hope you might just have learned something from that, and will keep what you post relevent from now on!"
Erm... I've "learned" NOTHING from what you have posted, I'm afraid. I DID learn how the word 'relevant' was spelt over four decades ago, however - although maybe I need to check whether the spelling has indeed changed in the intervening years up to your earlier post.
Nope - still with an 'a'. In that case, I have learned that you are happy to leave yourself wide open to admonishment from the spelling monitors on this site.
Oh - and I am one of them, by the way (just in case you hadn't figured that out for yourself...) ;o)
"It's been fun, and I expect I'll pop up again soon to keep an eye on you!"
It's been GREAT fun - and I can't wait for our next 'meeting'... but somehow I'm not so sure that other readers will be so welcoming of it.
It simply isn't relevant to what we do.
Hello PeeBee, didn't want you to get lonely, and I know how much you enjoy our nocturnal meetings!
Actually, you are for once correct, this thread is getting too long and It's getting to be a pain scrolling to the bottom to post! However, I know that big ego will mean you'll want to have the last word, so I won't post again on this thread and deny you your pleasure.
You are also quite correct in it becoming irrelevant, but actually, that happened several days ago when you decided that you were determined to have a go at Harwell Estates, but as seems usual with your posts, most of them are IRRELEVENT! When might we see a post from you that actually addresses the issue, rather than just telling everyone else they are wrong! I'll just remind you that you gave up in the end and had to admit that it was their business, and you had no right to make judgement on them. Hope you might just have learned something from that, and will keep what you post relevent from now on!
It's been fun, and I expect I'll pop up again soon to keep an eye on you!
Nighty night SIR!
"Just thought I'd pop over here and say hello, I know that ego means you will be checking!"
Nah - ego has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
I know this game - played it many times with many others. I stop posting - you claim I ran out. I post - you claim I'm egotistical.
Truth is - you're stubborn: I'm tenacious. Change the adjectives if you wish - it won't change anything really.
And all the time, the thread gets longer and less relevant.
Sorry, Mr Day.
Just thought I'd pop over here and say hello, I know that ego means you will be checking!
"Maybe that's just my "experience/qualification/justification (put in whatever word you like)" that gives me the edge in that respect, huh?"....... or maybe not, see what I've said elsewhere!
"I am no expert, but I've always understood that somewhere at the end of the line, you need a first time buyer..."
No. You need a PROCEEDABLE buyer. BIG difference.
I am no expert either - but I knew THAT.
Maybe that's just my "experience/qualification/justification (put in whatever word you like)" that gives me the edge in that respect, huh?
Interesting that you're only able to pick up on one of the myriad of quotes, and declare it to be out of context.
You picked an interesting one however, and I have to confess I was unaware of what an HPC'er was, so perhaps that one was possibly out of context, but I'm surprised to hear that you have such a short memory. Presumably you are unaware that prices fell in the late eighties/early nineties, and again as recently as 2008. Are you really then foolish enough to think that it could not happen again, and that rising house prices without a comparable rise in wages is totally unsustainable. We all know that wages are not going to rise, so those people that are predicting another price crash may make those of you who are naive enough to believe that nothing changes look somewhat foolish!
I am no expert, but I've always understood that somewhere at the end of the line, you need a first time buyer, and I would assume you're bright enough to have realised that in most parts of the country they simply cannot afford to buy!
So once again, your experience/qualification/justification (put in whatever word you like) is called into question. Perhaps you are not the 'expert' you seem to think SIR!
And to use your words once again, it is very apparent that you don't give a 'fuppeny tuck'. What you do seem to do however, is take delight in stirring the brown sticky stuff.
nighty night SIR
The one who would like to think of himself as "PeeBee's Conscience"...
I've been playing at this for five years and no plans whatsoever to retire - how long are YOU planning to hang around?
You ain't playing my 'conscience' - as I have issues whatsoever with what I 'say' on these pages.
If I didn't believe it with conviction - I wouldn't post it.
Knock yourself out for as long as you like.
Oh - and while in the spirit of things - I'll just blow ONE of your feeble attempts to cut'n'paste comments as 'proof' of my having "been critical of their means of working" completely out of the water.
You quote "his similar-minded compatriots offer a generally interesting slant on the situation... and whilst I don't subscribe to their way of thinking". Interesting one. Even in THIS isolated form I challenge you to show any relativity whatsoever to what you claim it to be - but by putting it back into its' original context, it reads:
"With regard to the 'HPCers' - I know that certain ones are just in it for the argument - however I would suggest that rantnrave and his similar-minded compatriots offer a generally interesting slant on the situation... and whilst I don't subscribe to their way of thinking, it is good to have it offered forward as we can then see what we may be up against in the thought processes of some prospective buyers."
Now... being, you say, someone who just stumbled across this site blindly whilst on a quest for knowledge relating to Online Estate Agents (Right time:right place, huh...?), you may be forgiven for not knowing what an 'HPCer' is.
Maybe, however, you should have checked first - especially when using it as 'evidence' against me. It is an acronym for 'House Price Crash'. Supporters of this fabled happening have their own website - and several of them 'stumbled' across this site also. They see it their purpose in life to spread the good word that the end ...of house prices as we know them... is nigh - and have been preaching that particular gospel for over half a decade now. One or two of the brethren are 'regulars' here on EAT - and we trade sermons in the hope of converting each other to the ways of the other camp.
Theirs is NOT "...a means of working..." that I am criticising, as you claim the comment to indicate. Also, by reading it in its' FULL context you see that I am being FAR from critical of the one person named in the quote.
Sorry to wee on your puny firework... SIR. I'm sure you'll keep trying - but please, please don't think I give a fuppeny tuck.
It will just make you all the more wazzed off and prone to misquote.
Nighty night.
"Sorry - just where have I been critical of their means of working? I have questioned their claims – but not their capabilities. And, in order to question their claims, I have simply quoted back to them their own words."
IM SO SORRY SIR, I SEEM TO HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING YOU'VE SAID HERE!
Or perhaps you are 'demented' as you suggested earlier, and are not really aware of what you are saying, yo I've reproduced a 'little' selection just to remind you!
PeeBee said:
this site is nothing other than an ego-massaging platform for those who claim to want to 'improve' what you guys already do very well and successfully.
his similar-minded compatriots offer a generally interesting slant on the situation... and whilst I don't subscribe to their way of thinking,
In a similar train of thought - awareness of what the Hendrys of this world are prostituting round as being gospel is a must-know.
You see - that is why the 'traditional' model will LONG outlive your flawed offering.
Except that, if, at the rate you charge for your services, that took you longer than about three hours - your business plan would have been in deep doo-doo.
REALLY? If I was selling MY prized asset, I would want to entrust it with the person or company who could simply demonstrate that they had the best chance of selling it at the best price in the shortest timeframe. "Best price" equates to "save money", Mr Day, when the "best price" is in excess of the differential between two respective fees. I challenge you to disprove that.
They WERE - by 2010 - already where, today, you merely DREAM to ASPIRE to ACHIEVE getting "somewhere close to"...
Says it all, really. NO need whatsoever to 'sell' what you list. Your existing vendors - including the three you took on yesterday (which I can't wait to see the appear on Rightmove - why aren't they on already... you work twelve hours a day seven days a week...) will no doubt be thrilled to read the extent of your commitment to them.
Hmmm... after HOW MANY touting letters or knocks on doors, I wonder?
In trying to be 'nice' to you today, I should draw to your attention that clicking the new property listed on your company website today takes you Rightmove as you would expect - but in this instance to ANOTHER AGENT'S listing, not yours.
that offering 'all' the bells and whistles at what is a fraction of the price of pretty much all of the competition leads to eyebrow twitching - which in my opinion is their biggest PROBLEM - not USP.
What about YOU, Sir - when was he last time you negotiated a sale on behalf of one of your vendors? Mine was two hours ago - in the living room, at a viewing. Been on any of those recently?
been banging the online drum for around six-odd years now from what I can see - surely you'd expect him to want more out of his last half-decade-and-a-bit, pulling his puds til they bled for all these thousands of people he's saved the neck-end of four million quid??
One way or another – it frightens me that you have created this clear potential for your clients to stiff you.
then you need your blinkers urgently adjusted to be able to see the big picture.
Thing is, Mr Wells - these 'experts' know 10% of bot-all - but get the column inches and people actually believe their drivel.
Oh, and for QUALIFICATION, as you well know, you could read EXPERIENCE, but I see you've declined to answer simple questions, never mind, I was not expecting an answer!
And yes, I am who I claim to be! Just an interested bystander.
“What makes you think you have the right to be so critical of others means of working?”
Sorry - just where have I been critical of their means of working? I have questioned their claims – but not their capabilities. And, in order to question their claims, I have simply quoted back to them their own words.
I therefore repeat my previous statement to you -
“…you clearly don't understand that someone's argument has a counter-argument.”
I would like to draw to your attention an extract of a comment directed by one poster at another:
“Sorry…, but 20 on RM after in 6 months is definitely not very good. I'm sorry to pi55 on your bonfire, but it is extremely low (I really want to 'have your back' as well!)
I'm afraid if you were one of my agents, you wouldn't have a job by now, my friend!
Should be nearer 100 stock by now, with 30 odd of those sold”.
This comment was made by AN ONLINE AGENT. For what it is worth, I disagree strongly with the above.
YET… you don’t seem to have any problem with THAT clear criticism of another’s means of working? Prima facie case of double standards there, methinks.
As I said (much to your apparent delight…) – it is up to an individual to set their stall out. If that individual is happy with their stall – then so be it. I can’t see what you find so strange about that comment. But then, I can’t see what you have a problem with my input in any event. I’ve simply taken EXACTLY what people have said – THEIR ‘spin’ – and spun it back on them.
Funny how we all see only through our own specs, innit?
"...brings me back to my question that still is also unanswered, as to what qualifies you to set yourself up as such an opinionated expert!... What qualification or experience do you have to make you such an 'expert'?”
Oh, dear – you seem to have an ongoing problem with not taking in what I type. So, I repeat:
“ "Expert"? Me? Don't make me laugh.
Sorry - you've got the wrong 'PeeBee', if THAT'S what you think I am. I have NEVER claimed to be "an expert" - quite the reverse in fact - I have left that well and truly to those that THINK they ARE.”
But, generally, I would ask what “qualification” ANYONE has when they are referred to (generally in the press…) as an “expert” in relation to the property market?
Usually, you will find the answer to be ‘none’. THAT would be the extent of MY “qualification”, IF I was considering myself to be an “expert” – which I don’t.
But you don’t seem to want to take that on board.
“Who am I? well, perhaps I'm not a nobody, I'm the most important person in all this, a potential client!”
IF the above is an accurate and honest description of your status, then you ARE one of the most important people in this whole shebang. That is how my clients are regarded – as should ANY Estate Agent (and please note before you fly off on one again that I am NOT saying that they don’t…!) or ANY service provider for that matter.
“What I want is some one who can sell my house for me for a price that is ACCEPTABLE to me, and in MY timeframe…”
Fine. Your call.
I would however respectfully suggest that for every one of ‘you’, there are hundreds of those who would view MY summing up of what they expect from their Estate Agent to be more accurate… and I hope you find that person (or company) – first time around. I would just respectfully suggest, however, that in order to ‘find’ that ‘some one’, that you actually do more about it than form a decision based upon what you want to pull off a forum.
If you consider me to be the wrong person that is fine. Client choice – we all live or die by it.
But I am ONE Agent out of THOUSANDS up and down the High Streets of the UK.
Are you REALLY going to blinker yourself to ALL of them – limit your options to a group who by their own admission cater to a tiny fraction of the market - just because you have a problem with the attitude of ONE whose posts on this Forum boil you up for some reason?
Strange.
Just a PS to my last post,
"Oh, dear. You DON'T need a "forward thinker" - you need someone who can SELL YOUR HOME...FOR THE BEST PRICE...IN THE SHORTEST TIMEFRAME...TO GET YOU THE BEST POSSIBLE NET RESULT.
And THAT is, beyond any shadow of doubt, "Probably the most sensible thing PeeBee has contributed to this thread!"
Somehow, however, I don't think you're going to pay any attention whatsoever to it."
What I want is some one who can sell my house for me for a price that is ACCEPTABLE to me, and in MY timeframe, somewhat different to what YOU say I want, so perhaps "THAT is, beyond any shadow of doubt, is Probably NOT the most sensible thing PeeBee has contributed to this thread!"
"Okay - you've had a good try - what ARE my motives, then?
I, for one, am DYING to hear what they are, in your considered opinion... "
Oh dear, a good understanding of the English language is obviously not your strong point, so I'll try to keep it simple, I'M ASKING A QUESTION!
I do have an opinion, based on the clear evidence in your posts below, but it is not up to me to tell you why you behave like you do, any more than by your own admission, it is not your place to tell others that they are running their business all wrong!
(I'll remind you, just in case you've forgotton..... "And... most importantly... who am I to say whether you are wrong or right? You are right. Your call. End of.")
Actually, perhaps you have answered the question in a roundabout way, "chewing ankles like a DEMENTED Jack Russell... "
"I WAS NOT WORKING AS AN ESTATE AGENT.
Sorry if that chucks the tiniest of spanners in your machine - but then that's what I do - isn't it...?"
Doesn't come close to chucking even the tiniest of spanners in, but it is a fascinating admission from someone who has such strong opinions, only a year ago, whilst you were posting on other threads, you were not working as an estate agent, brings me back to my question that still is also unanswered, as to what qualifies you to set yourself up as such an opinionated expert!
So come on then, simple questions, and let's have simple answers,
What makes you think you have the right to be so critical of others means of working?
What qualification or experience do you have to make you such an 'expert'?
I'm not holding my breath waiting for straightforward answers, as my impression from your last few posts is that you are not capable of being straightforward and honest, either here or with yourself!
In a spirit of fairness... BEFORE you post what you believe my "motives" to be - I suggest you read the following threads from this site's archive:
http://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/news_features/Hundreds-of-high-street-agents-to-vanish-warning
An interesting one, this - kicked off by the same chap as this one almost a year to the day earlier. Then:
http://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/news_features/Peter-Hendry-blog
You'll REALLY enjoy that one - over 500 posts of scorn and ridicule to wade through.
SO... you'll have plenty of my meat to chew over there.
Only one thing. One SMALL point for you to factor in to your assessment of where I 'come from' in all of this:
At the time that both of these threads were going full tilt; when I was chewing ankles like a demented Jack Russell...
I WAS NOT WORKING AS AN ESTATE AGENT.
Sorry if that chucks the tiniest of spanners in your machine - but then that's what I do - isn't it...?
"it does beg the question as to what all his previous posts have been about, where he tries his hardest to dismember someone else's business."
So you clearly don't understand that someone's argument has a counter-argument.
"my only contributions to this thread have been to question you and your motives, sir!"
Okay - you've had a good try - what ARE my motives, then?
I, for one, am DYING to hear what they are, in your considered opinion...
" I will use an online estate agent rather than a high street one when I come to sell in the new year, as it seems clear that there are many on the high street who are not exactly forward thinking."
Oh, dear. You DON'T need a "forward thinker" - you need someone who can SELL YOUR HOME...FOR THE BEST PRICE...IN THE SHORTEST TIMEFRAME...TO GET YOU THE BEST POSSIBLE NET RESULT.
And THAT is, beyond any shadow of doubt, "Probably the most sensible thing PeeBee has contributed to this thread!"
Somehow, however, I don't think you're going to pay any attention whatsoever to it.
"You are the business owner - you have previously clearly stated that you don't expect to knock doors out of walls from day one - I therefore trust that you are happy with the way things are currently growing. And... most importantly... who am I to say whether you are wrong or right?
You are right. Your call. End of."
Probably the most sensible thing PeeBee has contributed to this thread! it does beg the question as to what all his previous posts have been about, where he tries his hardest to dismember someone else's business. Perhaps realisation is beginning to dawn!
"You'll no doubt remember the old school playground rhyme - "Sticks and stones..."?
If the words I take and turn around have hurt you - just maybe you shouldn't have posted them in the first place...
Think about that one."
Don't worry, you haven't hurt me, my only contributions to this thread have been to question you and your motives, sir!
You declined to answer the question as to who you are and where you work, I can only assume that is out of fear of being judged yourself, but insted chose to say that you are 'a nobody'. Clearly from the tone of your previous posts, you seem full of your own importance as a guardian of what in your mind is the only way to work in estate agency, although perhaps from your statement above, 'It's your business...." just maybe you are learning something.
Who am I?, I AM a nobody, not an estate agent, just someone who happened upon this site as I'm planning to sell my house soon, and was looking for information about online agents and was intrigued by this thread. You should be careful on a public forum, you never know who might be watching! I should say thank you, because at least you've help me to a decision, I will use an online estate agent rather than a high street one when I come to sell in the new year, as it seems clear that there are many on the high street who are not exactly forward thinking.
Who am I? well, perhaps I'm not a nobody, I'm the most important person in all this, a potential client!
Or perhaps I'm your conscience sir, now I've found this site, I might just keep an eye out to see if you stcik to the statement "who am I to say whether you are wrong or right?"
PeeBee..
If that's an offer - I might just take you up on it!
Have a great weekend...
Mr Wells...
If you think THIS is a pub brawl you REALLY need to come out with me one night!
Then again... one of your ex bosses would probably warn you well away from sharing "a quiet drink or two" with me... ;o)
Thank you. Sir, for such an honest post. Maybe TOO honest - and some would have a field day (if we weren't now relegated to the murky depths and it wasn't just you, me and Dupree still hanging around)... but I'm actually not going to dissect it.
You are the business owner - you have previously clearly stated that you don't expect to knock doors out of walls from day one - I therefore trust that you are happy with the way things are currently growing. And... most importantly... who am I to say whether you are wrong or right?
You are right. Your call. End of.
"You are clearly passionate about what you do and the beautiful picture you paint of our trade is a Picasso,"
Picasso? I wish. 'O'-Level Scrape-Through was the pinnacle of my foray into the world of Art.
Maybe I'm more of an idealist - not an impressionist. Someone else clearly thinks I am more of an '@r$e-ist' What I 'talk' is what I believe 'should be' - and how I endeavour to set out my particular stall. The reality is that "if you haven't got it on the market, then you AIN'T going to sell it", I agree - however the obverse of that (MY 'reality', if you wish...) is 'if you AIN'T going to sell it, then you SHOULDN'T have it on the market'.
I am sure there are many that would laugh out loud reading that. Great - for once I will be spreading mirth instead of inciting anger.
And here's the thing - I ain't going to change anytime soon.
Oh, it's a "school playground", is it?
Not from where everyone else appears to be standing.
You'll no doubt remember the old school playground rhyme - "Sticks and stones..."?
If the words I take and turn around have hurt you - just maybe you shouldn't have posted them in the first place...
Think about that one.
More like a school playground, and we all know who the bully is.
Bullies are inadequate people, shouting and waving their fists around, perhaps that's why PeeBee prefers to be an unknown!
"You omit one key point here - I am not claiming anything that needs "judging"!" ......so what pray tell are you doing if your comments in the thread below are not judgmental????
"How dare you judge if you are not prepared to be judged yourself!"
WOW - so profound... and so late at night. "....nothing at all profound about that, very straightforward, but of course the playground bully would not see it like that, would they?
It's turning in to a pub brawl!
PeeBee...
You are clearly passionate about what you do and the beautiful picture you paint of our trade is a Picasso, but we all know the life blood of our business is instructions.
No matter what your product is, if you sell, you need stock...
You can't sell six cars a week if you only have four a week on your car lot!
Maybe I am struggling to drop my corporate upbringing where it was instructions, instructions, instructions...
But I am trying and that is why I decided to break away and launch Harwell Estates!
On the subject of numbers and revenue...
We have taken on 15 new instructions over three months (Sep, Oct and Nov) and have taken £3,240.00 in upfront fees with a further £800 due from success fees (where the fee is upfront/back end split) and a further £7,311.88 due from .75% contracts when we sell them.
Notice I use the word "when" and not if - I know you like a positive approach!
Have a great day my friend...
'Still a Pompous @r$e' -
You're entitled to an opinion. If that is yours - then good for you.
MY side of the fence looks very different. I like MY side of the fence better - so I won't be joining you on yours.
I'm sure that will be perfectly fine with you as well.
I think your lengthy response, both the Mr Wells and my post just goes to prove my point!
"Oh - and I take NO "delight" whatsoever in chewing ankles. Quite the reverse."
Apparently, from the persistance you show, you clearly do, otherwise you would simply not bother!
Nighty night!
Oh, sorry, previous poster - so wrapped up in responding to Mr Wells that I missed your latest offering.
"Do you never think for just one minute that the people you take such obvious delight in trying to tear apart (or, as you would have it, chew the ankles of) are perhaps trying to do EXACTLY the same as you claim to be doing in their jobs!"
I haven't said I don't. Not once. Never have. I was making a simple statement - one which I would hope that everyone could and would state in the same circumstances. You seem to have a problem with that - why?
Oh - and I take NO "delight" whatsoever in chewing ankles. Quite the reverse.
Pompous? Do yourself a favour - take your head for a well-deserved and overdue sh!te.
"How dare you judge if you are not prepared to be judged yourself!"
WOW - so profound... and so late at night.
You omit one key point here - I am not claiming anything that needs "judging"!
WHEN I claim to be the new Hovis - I expect you there to gnaw away to your heart's content.
But don't hold your breath - I ain't in a hurry to tell anyONE I'm any GOOD at anyTHING.
Nighty night.
Mr Wells...
Thank you for your response.
"Although I would have liked to have agreed a sale or two in that time, the opportunity to do that has a direct correlation with how many instructions you have..."
Sorry - I disagree BIG TIME. You are playing the "Numbers Game" card by using that statement. I expected more from you. Vendors do not want to be numbers in the game, Sir. They have appointed their Agent TO SELL their property. ANYTHING less is failing them and the trust they have put in you, based upon what you tell them in their living room.
THAT is how serious the job is. My opinion. THAT is how seriously I take my involvement in the process. I fail - I take it personally - and I have let those people down. IF another company does the job that I have set out to do - then I have let MY VENDORS down; MY EMPLOYERS down - and MYSELF down.
Of course it is impossible to expect to sell 100% of property you list - but it is unacceptable to expect NOT to sell them, in my opinion.
The factors that dictate our sales success are in OUR direct control, Mr Wells - not buried in statistics and percentages. AIM for 100% success. THAT is the only 'acceptable' statistic our customer wants to hear from us. Agree?
(...climbs down from soapbox...)
"...as a new brand we are obviously going to have less instructions to sell compared to an agent who has been on Bedale High Street since 1962!"
Sorry - your whole company ethos pooh-poohs what you have just said there:
"We simply choose not to burn the money needed to run a High Street office and offer a full estate agency service to a regional market for a fraction of the cost."
Or... am I missing something - does "a full estate agency service" not afford you an equal chance to sell to that of an Agent on the High Street?
6 November: "...those in the middle (ie companies like yours...) will be the slayers of the average High Street agent"
Same post: "While the battle of the giants continues we are happily chipping away at the local market share while spending a fraction of the cost doing so!"
11 November: "For an agent that has just been slated - 3 new instructions won today is not a bad score!... Anyone else taken on 3 new instructions today?"
"Just looked at the Rightmove KPI's for the last 4 weeks and Harwell Estates are 8th out of 80 offices who have a presence in our area for new instructions! We are so rubbish..."
Hmmm... just checked MY office stats - 4th out of 28 'competitors'. Does that make mine better than yours - or worse?
Answer - neither. It means diddly. For a start, 55% of them have done NOWT in a month in my wee patch - nor are they likely to in the next month... of SUNDAYS!
Back to my previous soap-box stance for this next bit, I guess...
INSTRUCTIONS, Mr Wells, is NOT an indicator I subscribe to. Certainly NOT when those that take on thirty in a month only sell seven (and that's with a wind behind them!) - I call that abject failure!
Would you agree? Plenty probably wouldn't...
Mind you, Mr Wells... I've got to hand it to you - using your previously stated 'formula' for up-front fees, you've been paid six hundred quid or so for the properties you've taken on the market where, so far, my company has banked bot-all for the instructions I've listed in the month - for THAT I kind of take my hat off to you!
However... I'll stick to taking the more traditional rewards at the end - for what I sincerely hope and expect my clients will say is a job well done, if that's all the same to you!
"In my day-to-day job, I simply do the best I can."
Do you never think for just one minute that the people you take such obvious delight in trying to tear apart (or, as you would have it, chew the ankles of) are perhaps trying to do EXACTLY the same as you claim to be doing in their jobs!
How dare you judge if you are not prepared to be judged yourself!
Last poster...
Is it me?
IF it is... so what? Did the poster receive bad advice on his/her query?
I would say that the answer was pretty much spot on - but then of course, I could be biased, couldn't I...?
Back to your post.
"Challenged to 'come clean' and tell us who you are, Mr Expert PeeBee, but not happened!"
Firstly, WHO I am is irrelevant. I have stated that on this site now for around five years. I am NOBODY. I have never set myself up to BE someone. If I was to post using a 'proper' name - no-one would be any the wiser. I just like my nickname and the occasional huffy bod gets their kicks by changing it to "PeeWee" or similar - so it makes them feel all warm and good about themselves when otherwise they were being complete berks, so for them it balances their scales somewhat. Anything to oblige.
Secondly - "Expert"? Me? Don't make me laugh.
Sorry - you've got the wrong 'PeeBee', if THAT'S what you think I am. I have NEVER claimed to be "an expert" - quite the reverse in fact - I have left that well and truly to those that THINK they ARE.
"so where is he, what experience has he got to be such an EXPERT!"
I've covered BOTH points many, many times previously on this site. If you're THAT interested - look further down the page (about half-way, give or take...) where I've covered it already for another who demanded to know my 'qualification'.
And, to that person, who posted "It seems to me then Sir, perfectly reasonable to be asked to produce some sort of indication that you have any expereince on which to base the position of industry authority that you pompously set yourself up to be!" - my response was
" "Industry authority"? Not even maybe.
I leave that to the "experts"."
See - if nothing else - I'm consistent.
"If he comes clean, we can all go and check his figures like he takes so much pleasure in doing with everyone else....... Or maybe he wouldn't like that much!!!"
In answer to the last sentence first - I wouldn't give a fuppeny tuck what you or anyone else would think about 'my' figures. I don't profess to be an award-winning lister... I don't claim to be the new 'Hovis'... nor do I scream from the parapets that I'm going to close down the entire traditional Estate Agency world with my latest cunning plan (which generally entails nothing other than charging less than the cost of an interim car service and then relying on t'internet do the job that people pay REAL Estate Agents to do manually) - I leave that to certain others on here... then bring them down to Earth with their own words. No magic there.
In my day-to-day job, I simply do the best I can. It is all I CAN do - and, so far, the employers I have worked for over the years think that it is enough to keep me in almost continuous employment for thirty-odd years.
In essence, on EAT, in my 'anonymous' guise, I simply gnaw at ankles.
Maybe I've had a chew at YOURS in the past, poster - is THAT what this is about? Have I turned YOUR words on you?
That would put you in a select group of... thousands, by my reckoning.
Don't lose any more sleep over who I am - it's simply not important.
Trust me - I AM an Estate Agent, after all... ;o)
Challenged to 'come clean' and tell us who you are, Mr Expert PeeBee, but not happened!
'Trust me I'm NOW an estate agent' see below, so where is he, what experience has he got to be such an EXPERT!
If he comes clean, we can all go and check his figures like he takes so much pleasure in doing with everyone else....... Or maybe he wouldn't like that much!!!
Copied from Building.co.uk Forum
PeeBee Offline
Proof that negative IQ's exist
Posts: 2,717
Joined: Nov 2008
RE: Repossessed House Help?
(21-08-2013 12:40 PM)PapeAdam Wrote: ...apparently a bank will not give you a mortgage if the house doesn't contain a sink/kitchen area?
'tis usually correct, Sir. Your family member will have to confirm with their chosen Lender, but most make this stipulation.
Of course, they could approach the Lender who currently 'owns' the property and see if THEY would lend in its' present condition - subject to retention/undertaking to rectify...
Warning - buying a home in possession is a minefield.
Trust me - I'm now an Estate Agent! Rolleyes
PeeBee...
Your claims are correct both on the number of new instructions and sales agreed.
Although I would have liked to have agreed a sale or two in that time, the opportunity to do that has a direct correlation with how many instructions you have and as a new brand we are obviously going to have less instructions to sell compared to an agent who has been on Bedale High Street since 1962!
On the subject of new instructions though and the agent who has been on the High Street since 1962...
Rightmove Sales Agent Competitor Analysis - New Listings. (27/10/2013 - 23/11/2013)
Rank = 11th with Harwell Estates with 3 new listings.
Six months (Harwell Estates) - 1962, one might say that they are slightly more established and should be whooping my rear...
Clearly not!
If that is the best they can do after 51 years, one might say that the end may be nigh!
And they are not the worst, one agent also on Bedale High Street has not taken anything on in over four weeks!
As I have said before, those numbers simply don't work on the High Street with High Street costs...
I now have pictures flashing through my mind of the fight scene between Hugh Grant and Colin Firth in Bridget Jones's Diary.
Have a great one!
Mr Wells
"Not just a good Estate Agent!"
We're at 207 posts now (there - see what I did? ;o) )... three weeks down the line from when this one kicked off... but in that time you've listed three properties - and sold none, according to my reckonings. Please correct me if I am wrong... Rightmove CAN be inaccurate from time to time.
I'm not sure that everyone out there will agree with your above statement, based upon those stats, Sir.
Not that it matters - we are the only two left in the room - still slugging it out like two punchy old prizefighters!
PeeBee...
I thought it was 206?
See what I've done there...
Not just a good Estate Agent!
...and we can't end the thread on a weblink plug, either! ;o)
Nowt wrong with the number 205, Mr Wells - I spent the first dozen or so years of my life in a house of which the door number was 205.
But, of course, you'll know that about me as well, I guess! ;o)
We can't finish this thread on an odd number - it's bad luck...
204 posts though is not bad going!
www.harwellestates.co.uk
Ahhh... the old 'Tepid-low' cherry, Mr Wells!
You're turning (...albeit veeeeery slowly...) into my kinda guy! ;o)
My comment on the original story as it broke (you will see it directly above this one on the archive page) was
" Think the phrase is 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys' "
I have posted many, many comments about this woeful site since it first emerged on EAT's pages many moons ago. To be frank, I'm bored with Ms Beeny and her attempts at pretending to be some kind of 'pwoperty guwu' - but then for me the same goes for that other Channel 4 duo that set my teeth on edge just by thinking about them.
Thing is, Mr Wells - these 'experts' know 10% of bot-all - but get the column inches and people actually believe their drivel.
There are many people who frequent this site who could buy any one of them with one hand and sell them immediately on, at a profit, with the other. THEY are the ones that the news should reflect the thoughts and actions of - not these mup... erm, I mean PUPpets of the media.
Note that herself has not deemed it appropriate to comment on the story.
Doubt she'd know where to start.
BUT IF SHE DID... can you imagine the chewing I'd give HER ankles, Mr Wells?? ;o)
Sarah Beeney and Tepilo...
I challenge you to beat the longevity of this thread!
£50 and you are on Rightmove - that's going to be a pucker service, more like a Pukka pie...
PeeBee...
Your thoughts?
Because I know you are still checking...
"I also know what car you drive!"
So does anyone who has read one of the previous threads when Mr Day and I were discussing cars...
PeeBee...
I should hope so too!
I have revealed who I am and the name of my brand - I am exposed or is that promoted...
You on the other hand!
Reveal yourself to the EA world...
PS.
I also know what car you drive!
Mr Wells...
So do I!
PeeBee...
All the best my friend!
PS.
I know who you are...
Mr Wells...
"I will keep you posted on the good and bad as my journey continues!"
Somehow, Sir, I don't think you would recognise "bad" if it were to beat you to a pulp with a baseball bat! ;o)
"As far as Harwell Estates being agent of choice in our area, that is our main objective..."
THAT'S MY BOY!!
"...but as far as being the most expensive, that is not..."
On reflection of my previous statement and in light of the above - I demand a DNA test. ;oP
Whatever - I DO look forward to our forthcoming trades!
Keep those shoes tightly laced! ;o)
PeeBee...
I will keep you posted on the good and bad as my journey continues!
As far as Harwell Estates being agent of choice in our area, that is our main objective but as far as being the most expensive, that is not...
I look forward to trading further comments with you on future threads!
Have a great day and a cracking last six weeks of 2013...
Sorry Adam!
Mr Wells
Being one of one is no fun.
Quote from Marvin Gaye...
"It takes two, baby"
When you become "The Agent of Choice" in your area - I'll take my hat off to you.
When you become "The Agent of Choice" AND "The Most Expensive Agent" in your area - I'll welcome you into the club!
;o)
PeeBee...
I must say it has been a pleasure trading with you!
However, as the quote from the film Highlander states...
"There can be only one."
See you on the other side!
PS.
Canvassing went very well and I met some lovely people who are sure to be using Harwell Estates very soon!
Well, Mr Wells - relegated now to page 4 (and sinking fast...) it's hardly worth your while to continue this line of debate.
Passage of time has let you off the hook... albeit VERY temporarily, methinks!
I'll be gnawing at your ankles elsewhere on newer threads, no doubt.
Mr Day
Sorry that YOUR thread got hijacked - but nevertheless you can (...and WILL, obviously...) claim to have kicked off ONE OF THE most popular threads on EAT in many a month! ;o)
Mr Wells
"You are the first one to point out when a comment is based on personal opinion, lacks any form of substance or factual evidence, however...
Your comments about how my clients will screw me over and ultimately cost me thousands of pounds and how my business will never work is based exactly on the above!"
Sir - I NEVER said they WILL - I was pointing out that they COULD, and how easy it would be for them to do it.
If you can't see that I was actually trying to help you - then you need your blinkers urgently adjusted to be able to see the big picture.
Enjoy your "canvassing". Hope those shoes have got decent grips ;o)
Good morning PeeBee...
You are the first one to point out when a comment is based on personal opinion, lacks any form of substance or factual evidence, however...
Your comments about how my clients will screw me over and ultimately cost me thousands of pounds and how my business will never work is based exactly on the above!
My clients have not yet screwed me over, my business is building nicely thank you very much and as I have said before, our clients are choosing to use us...
When I fall flat on my face and revert to flipping burgers I am sure you will be the first to tell me!
In the meantime, me and my new shoes have plenty of miles to cover today delivering yet more canvassing material which I guarantee will generate Harwell Estates even more new business...
Have a great day!
Mr Wells...
Whassup - struggling with those new shoes?? ;o)
Ahhh... Mr Wells. Apologies for not having, as I'm sure you hoped to be the case, got bored with this conversation and turning my attention to other issues within the industry. Sorry, but I have simply been away from my computer for a few days - more incommunicado than ignoring you.
You’ve obviously been awaiting my response with baited breath.
Firstly, let me assure you that it is not my wish to separate you from your footwear. I actually hope that you and your new shoes have a long and happy life together, and cover many miles in the process. I was simply making a point that I am, at this moment in time, extremely relaxed in our discussions, having more of a lazy gnaw at your heels than expending energy aiming for your ankles. There's plenty of meat where I am - and you keep topping it up with more so I'm just fine and dandy at that lower level, thank you. I would prefer not to have to crane my neck upwards if you don’t mind. And - believe me – you REALLY don’t want that either.
HOWEVER… back to your post from Friday.
I’m going to start by congratulating you:
“Correct me if I am wrong but a sale and purchase is agreed before contracts exchange...”
Well done! You’ve got it in one. Almost, anyway. You DO need to agree a SALE on your property before you can exchange Contracts on it – but you certainly don’t have to agree an ongoing purchase.
UNFORTUNATELY… from there you go downhill quicker and far more successfully than Eddie The Eagle ever managed:
“Therefore, if a client wishes to swap from one Home Seller Package to another (0.75% upon exchange to either £299 upfront + £300 upon exchange or £499 upfront) and they can only do it before a sale and purchase is agreed it is then impossible for them to swap packages before exchange of contracts.”
Erm… Sorry? Run that one past me again, please.
Actually - no, don’t. I really don’t want you getting your shoelaces more knotted than they already clearly are with the above offering.
You see – this is the problem. You don’t even understand your OWN ‘package’ system – and how it can $h@9 you up big-style.
Back to MY point – which clearly went over your head. Maybe THIS might enlighten you somewhat…
You ORIGINALLY said “"Our flexible approach to what we charge also allows clients to switch from 0.75% upon exchange to an upfront fee at any point should they want to." Note, please, “…AT ANY POINT…”
I therefore pointed out to you that a savvy seller (and you make a big point of crowing that your sellers “CHOOSE YOU over others” – so clearly in YOUR mind your sellers qualify as ‘savvy’…) could quite easily come to you once a sale is agreed; which I would say any judge and jury in the land would constitute being within the bounds of “…AT ANY POINT…” – and could therefore ‘switch’ to a more cost-effective fee arrangement, thereby saving themselves (…and COSTING YOU, in terms of lost revenue…) hundreds or even thousands of pounds.
SO… upon MY pointing out of your gaffe, you then change the goalposts somewhat, and revise your policy to:
“Our clients can switch package AT ANY POINT BEFORE A SALE AND PURCHASE IS AGREED.”
Okay – apart from being back to the ridiculous inclusion of “…and purchase…” which has no bearing whatsoever upon the price of eggs (actually shafts you – as they can, according to that wording, agree a SALE, then elect to vary your agreement before agreeing a PURCHASE – yet ANOTHER ‘OOPS!’ moment, methinks…), it only alters my scenario slightly – which I will even do for you so that you don’t have to think about it:
Here it is again, with amends:
You agree to market a property at an asking price of £750000 on your 'Fee Package 3'. Your Fee, should you sell the property at the asking price, would therefore be £5625 (you don't state whether your Fee in INCLUSIVE or EXCLUSIVE of the dreaded VAT - I'll assume it is the former as you still haven’t commented on that).
SO... you do what you should do - and you RECEIVE AN OFFER on the property. Let's say at £700000 (an apparently respectable 93.33% of the asking price). Your Fee SHOULD therefore be £5250.
EXCEPT... vendor exercises their 'right' under your generous Contract terms to swap for 'Package 2' AS THE “SALE” YOU REFER TO HAS NOT YET BEEN AGREED - and the Fee then amounts to £499.
Sorry – but you'll STILL be saying "ta-ta" to four-and-three-quarter grand at that point!
Not sure how you ‘work’ your business – but I would have thought that you’ll have at some point forecasted your projected income.
The differential kinda bu99ers THAT up, I would suggest – unless, of course, you put them ALL in at £499 and anything else is a bonus!
Before my closing shot… and back to your post from Friday, when you say:
“0.75% upon exchange is one of the three Home Seller Packages (Package 3) which Harwell Estates offer their clients.
It is the easiest and simplest way of explaining what they are going to pay and when they are going to pay it.”
Erm… actually I would argue that it is the HARDEST way to explain what and when they are going to pay.
1. You don’t know how much you are going to ‘sell’ the property for – so you can only give them an illustration based upon full asking price (and if you are REALLY brave, how much you have suggested to them be a reasonable figure to accept – somehow I think not in that instance…)
2. IF your business is to reach a point where VAT becomes payable, then you will be required to charge your clients accordingly. Therefore a Fee agreed several months previously when your turnover didn’t attract VAT may well become liable – ESPECIALLY when you consider the exponential growth you suggest is happening!
With the other two options available to your customers, even ‘Package 1’ has an element that may attract VAT at some stage, does it not?
Therefore, the “easiest and simplest” Fee for your customers to swallow is ‘Package 3’.
YET… you state only 20% of your customers (mind you - that WAS a few days ago so that percentage could be ANYWHERE now, if past experience is anything to go by…) elect to go with it.
I wonder why?
One way or another – it frightens me that you have created this clear potential for your clients to stiff you.
I shouldn’t even be bothered. YOU clearly aren’t…
Anyway - that's me finished for today - I think. I'll end in the manner in which this thread has seemed to drift:
Next...
Still in my shoes PeeBee - in fact, I bought some new ones today!
Good morning PeeBee...
0.75% upon exchange is one of the three Home Seller Packages (Package 3) which Harwell Estates offer their clients.
It is the easiest and simplest way of explaining what they are going to pay and when they are going to pay it.
Correct me if I am wrong but a sale and purchase is agreed before contracts exchange...
Therefore, if a client wishes to swap from one Home Seller Package to another (0.75% upon exchange to either £299 upfront + £300 upon exchange or £499 upfront) and they can only do it before a sale and purchase is agreed it is then impossible for them to swap packages before exchange of contracts.
Have a great and profitable day!
11.43 this morning:
"Our flexible approach to what we charge also allows clients to switch from 0.75% upon exchange to an upfront fee AT ANY POINT should they want to."
18.57 this evening:
"Our clients can switch package at any point BEFORE A SALE AND PURCHASE IS AGREED."
What a difference SEVEN HOURS makes...
"I have to hand it to you - you are trying very hard!"
Not even maybe. I'll let you know when I drop into second gear.
Actually... come to think of it... you won't need to be told.
It'll take you clean out of your shoes.
In answer to your question PeeBee...
Our clients can switch package at any point before a sale and purchase is agreed.
I have to hand it to you - you are trying very hard!
Next...
PS.
We have just released number two of the three instructions we said would go live by the end of this week.
"Our flexible approach to what we charge also allows clients to switch from 0.75% upon exchange to an upfront fee at any point should they want to."
Okay - I'd like to point out to you the major flaw in this kind of "flexible approach".
You agree to market a property at an asking price of £750000 on your 'Fee Package 3'. Your Fee, should you sell the property at the asking price, would therefore be £5625 (you don't state whether your Fee in INCLUSIVE or EXCLUSIVE of the dreaded VAT - I'll assume it is the former).
SO... you do what you should do - and you agree a sale on the property. Let's say at £700000 (an apparently respectable 93.33% of the asking price). Your Fee will therefore be £5250.
EXCEPT... vendor exercises their 'right' under your generous Contract terms to swap for 'Package 2' - and the Fee then amounts to £499.
You'll be saying "ta-ta" to four-and-three-quarter grand at that point!
PLEASE tell me that's not an "oh, bu99er!" moment I've just tipped you off to - and that despite your bold words above you actually have SOMETHING in place within your Contract to avoid the possibility of urine extraction I have just highlighted...
Thanks for your response Adam, I'll watch out for you coming into East Anglia.
Wasn't expecting you to give away all your secrets ;)
"And as far as "touting" is concerned, we are actively promoting our business in the area/s we trade in and that can sometimes be no more than having a chat with a potential client while in the local shop, the bar or the barbers - we trade in North Yorkshire and people like to chat and save money!"
Oh... I see.
So then, when the following:
"Hi we have just had your business card through our door in catterick village we are currently on with two agents..."
is posted on your Facebook page - it must have blown through the door when you dropped it outside of the local shop on a windy day, obviously.
How lucky, then, that it found its own way to someone who might actually require the services of an Estate Agent.
Oh, wait - they already have two. More than ample for the majority of people.
Still - the 'homing card' is a miraculous happening though... innit, Sir?
Hound
We only start an office and employ a regional consultant when we are hitting certain triggers in that area from our 'national presence' anyway. We already have 12 'regional offices' mapped out as our immediate strategy for growth.
Once those triggers are hit, I know that I can put someone in an office and 'head office' or 'our history' will provide at least that number of instructions every month to that new office. And because we have been building up these areas and the triggers are being hit, there is a natural amount of people who have viewed those previous properties who are needing to sell their house.
The regional consultants get no marketing budget, no marketing spend, no advertising, no leaflets - nothing. But they also get to open an office that is already a tiny bit established. No cold starts.
The regional consultants job is to increase instruction levels from what we have been providing to that area, by 100% within the first year. Sheffield and Manchester have both been going for 18 months and each has increased instructions by 118% and 128% respectively at the 1 year point.
The 2nd year is more tricky. You're not going to grow that area by 100% with no advertising. But that is where I come in with my marketing ideas and strategy to grow - some of the ideas are being launched in the NY sometime.
But to start with, each new office works with the leads that have been generated via Rightmove, Zoopla and our own site from the national presence that we already have for the previous 3 month.
And alongside that, I have a team of staff here in head office who generate business for these regional consultants as well by converting viewers to sellers - which is a pretty easy sell really!
But I'm giving you all my secrets now, so I better shut up!
Next office is planned to be Norwich, or perhaps Nottingham - it depends which one hits the necessary triggers first...
Adam, just to play devil's advocate for a moment, we're perhaps not getting the complete picture and he might be only referring to current stock, and hopefully for him in the six months he's already had some completed sales. If that's not the case, then totally agree with you, 20 in six months is pretty blxxdy awful.
Last time I was involved in a cold start was 2003, and we took on 20 in the first month, and by the end of the first year had a 50% market share in the town. But that was in a small town, so a tight geographical area and with a high street presence, this was achieved with 'traditional' methods, blanketing the area with leaflets, canvassing properties already on the market, a well planned advertising campaign in the local paper, building local contacts, and of course a tangible high street presence.
This leads me to a question for you, when you put a new regional consultant in place, given that you are aiming to operate over a very large geographical area, how to you attract those new instructions? Given the size of area you aim to cover, I can see that there could be some difficulty with conventional business building methods.
In answer to all your questions PeeBee...
The switch from 10 - 20% is down to a blend of new instructions and clients wishing to pay us upfront.
As far as contracts are concerned, why wouldn't I want my clients to have freedom to choose how and when they paid us - there must be thousands of variations of an agency agreement in place all over the UK.
If we are instructed to sell a property which is currently on the market and there are no notice periods, we can and will have it live within hours should the client wish.
On the subject of the three new instructions I boasted about on Saturday - I have already stated that one is live and the other two will be live by the end of this week.
And as far as "touting" is concerned, we are actively promoting our business in the area/s we trade in and that can sometimes be no more than having a chat with a potential client while in the local shop, the bar or the barbers - we trade in North Yorkshire and people like to chat and save money!
With all due respect Adam...
We are a regional brand not a National brand like Hatched!
We cover the local Market Towns and villages around North Yorkshire where even the most established brands only take on (average) two new instructions per week.
So if they are taking on (average) eight new instructions per month, I make that forty eight new instructions within the same six month period in which we have been trading.
20/48 = 41%. (Brand for brand.)
The difference being though that these brands have offices in various Market Towns (Norman F. Brown - Bedale, Leyburn and Richmond as an example) where instead Harwell Estates can cover the same demographics but without the cost of having to support three High Street offices.
If we take an instruction in Bedale, Leyburn and Richmond (as an example) every week then our model works but more to the point, that is three instructions they don't have.
We also have Northallerton, Thirsk, Middleham, Darlington and Barnard Castle to go at which in time will allow the brand to expand.
Next...
Okay, then... let's dig a bit here.
You say:
"Our flexible approach to what we charge also allows clients to switch from 0.75% upon exchange to an upfront fee at any point should they want to."
SO, then, what you are saying (feel free to correct me if I am wrong...) is that, between Sunday and today, approximately one-and-a-half of your stock have changed their mind on the Fee they want to pay you - yes?
Interesting - didn't know that an Agency Contract would (or indeed COULD) allow such picking and choosing...
While we're on... harping back to previous 'discussions'...
From 9 November:
"For an agent that has just been slated - 3 new instructions won today is not a bad score!"
From 10 November:
"As far as getting our stock online - we are keen to get them live as soon as possible but (contrary to what some say and think of us) we also have to be compliant and practice due diligence."
From today:
"Further more, what you see on Rightmove does not take in to consideration those clients who have instructed us and paid us but as yet their details are not ready for release."
Yet, from your own website (Testimonials):
""I cant believe... had my property for sale on Rightmove within hours of instructing them while saving me thousands of pounds in fees at the same time."
Of the THREE instructions you boasted about on SATURDAY, only ONE is currently showing on your site or RM - and I had to correct you on it!
SO - which is it, Sir - "hours"?... days...? if...?
While I'm on, I'd like to drag you back to a question I asked following your statement "With regards to our multi listings, each and every one has been with another agent first and before Harwell Estates were appointed - client choice!"
To which I asked "Hmmm... after HOW MANY touting letters or knocks on doors, I wonder?"
I'm STILL wondering...
Sorry Harwell Estates, but 20 on RM after in 6 months is definitely not very good. I'm sorry to pi55 on your bonfire, but it is extremely low (I really want to 'have your back' as well!)
I'm afraid if you were one of my agents, you wouldn't have a job by now, my friend!
Should be nearer 100 stock by now, with 30 odd of those sold
Next...
I quote from my previous posts...
"Two great valuation appointments today, two very happy clients and two new instructions coming very soon."
And that is still the case but they (the above) have nothing to do with the three I mentioned below...
"Three new instructions won today is not a bad score!"
These were won from follow up calls made - one of which is now live and another two which will be live by the end of this week...
As for the other two, we are hoping they will be live by the end of November but one is a new build almost finished (so subject to the weather and build time) and the other client is trying to pursued their current agent to reduce the 28 day notice period and drop the £150 withdrawal fee!
So, I pledge you twenty instructions on Rightmove by the end of this week with another two to follow...
Not bad for November and for a business which is only six months old - our clients are choosing us!
Next...
Leave him alone! Matt has already proved that adding up the number of valuations in a single day can be fraught with error, how on earth do you think he will manage percentages and extrapolation?
Our flexible approach to what we charge also allows clients to switch from 0.75% upon exchange to an upfront fee at any point should they want to.
As a new brand it is acceptable to understand why some may be reluctant to pay upfront until they get a taste of what they are going to receive in terms of service and viewing levels and that is what has happened on this occasion.
Further more, what you see on Rightmove does not take in to consideration those clients who have instructed us and paid us but as yet their details are not ready for release.
Today:
"On the subject of blended fees (Hound) it works for us but it is client choice...
0.75% upon exchange. (10% take up)"
From Sunday:
"Not every client however chooses to pay up front and 20% of our clients currently choose to pay .75% upon exchange as with a traditional fee model."
Which is it? TEN, or TWENTY percent?
You have seventeen listings (and two of those relate to the same property...) - the figures can't be THAT taxing to extrapolate, surely?.
Morning all!
On the subject of blended fees (Hound) it works for us but it is client choice...
If you have not looked at what we charge or offer it is as below:
£299 upfront + £300 upon exchange. (70% take up)
£499 upfront. (20% take up)
0.75% upon exchange. (10% take up)
Our clients like the idea of being able choose what they pay and when they pay - within reason.
Have a great day!
Thanks for your thoughts PeeBee, whilst we my have differing views on certain things, the reality is we're not a million miles apart.
Agree 100% with your opening paragraph, and just to add a bit if I may, the pressure to perform for corporate staff is also a huge contributory factor to the decline in standards, ethics and reputation of the industry as a whole.
I'm looking at changing our fee structures and offering a combination of fees with an up front marketing fee with a reduced percentage on completion. (alongside the conventional NSNF) I have, as you suggest, looked closely at the numbers, and provided instruction and sales levels remain similar it should work.
I can see several advantages to this model, easing cashflow, less 'abortive' costs, increased customer loyalty, with the benefit for them of a smaller overall fee, and if it's 'sold' correctly to Joe Public, I hope it could prove popular and increase instruction levels and therefore overall profitability.
I am aware that I'm not the first to suggest or try this idea, but as I said earlier, many years ago, they probably told the first agent to offer NSNF that he was mad!
Sorry, Hound - yes... I'm sorry but I'd missed that in my rush to, as 'opinion chap' would say, "vilify" Mr Day again!
Okay... here goes.
The 'conventional' model is pants. FREE this... FREE that... NO SALE NO FEE... take more than an hour to find you a buyer and we will quarter our fee and remove a kidney as an offering to you... ALL of these USPs have led to a degeneration of the industry in terms of standards and therefore reputation.
I do it MY way. To all intents and purposes it's the same as most - there are no new ways to 'sell' a home - but by tossing away the book; forgetting "The Numbers Game" mentality and by charging a bl00dy fair fee for what we do (higher than the competition - but nowhere near high enough... YET...) - my wee office here 'oop North will do quite nicely over the coming months, thank you.
20% up on sales year-on-year; 25% up on Fees (only ninepence up on values, by the way...) - who knows - next phase is to rid of flippin' NSNF! Maybe even charge for advertising!
Hound - work it out for yourself. How many properties do you SELL in a year? How much are your annual costs?
How much, therefore, MUST your income per property be simply to break even?
Mr D is no longer a fee-earner, he says in a post below. He is therefore a COST to his business - don't get me wrong - I'm sure he is a cost well spent. But quite recently on another of his advertorial threads he said that he drives a pool car - but aspires to buying a Focus, and his only holiday this year was a cheapie.
For someone who is starting up - that sounds about right - maybe even just a pipe-dream.
BUT - Mr D and his company is one of the 'originals' - been banging the online drum for around six-odd years now from what I can see - surely you'd expect him to want more out of his last half-decade-and-a-bit, pulling his puds til they bled for all these thousands of people he's saved the neck-end of four million quid??
Like I said in my previous post - SOMETHING doesn't compute.
Matey - what I said to Mr D WAAAAAY down this thread is the best advice we can ALL take and run with:
"...you ARE a niche. Be the best at what you do."
Works for ME in MY little niche. Always has. Always will. ;o)
Sorry - last post was me, of course, Mr Day! ;o)
"No, because I have other online/hybrid models that are competition. Not just you 'luddites'"
Okay - NOW I'm confused...
We 'luddites', with our high fees - according to you, currently charging "around £3700" more on average than your Agency - are hogging by your reckoning between 95% and 98% of the market. Your CHEAPER competitors are, by your reckoning, taking approximately 90% of those properties listed by onlines - leaving you with maybe 10% of 2-5% of the market.
Something here doesn't compute.
WHY, please, are these 'cheaper' competitors causing you worry that they will steal market share if you were to up the antes a little with your own fee structure - when you 'predict' that you and these others are going to grab up to SEVENTY PERCENT of the market within the timeframe that bad mojo would cease to exist if you broke a mirror?
PeeBee,
posted this earlier, but it's slipping down and I wouldn't want you to miss it, as I'm sure you'll have some illuminating answers ;)
"With estate agency, you do all the work, whether the client is happy or not, and get paid sweet FA if you don't sell it. That is just completely bonkers."
MORE THAN HAPPY to agree with you on that front, Mr Day! ;o)
So PeeBee, if as you say there, you are in agreement that the 'conventional' business model is a nonsense, what, if anything are YOU doing to change it, if not, why not, and why show so much concern about those that are?
You'll see the reasons for my question if you look at my post below.
Looks like Adam has been reading through the Hendry Blogg thread and is catching on to what the luddites were telling Peter Hendry 2 years ago.
Still watching and reading from a distance and no offence taken Adam!
iSold still operating Adam (well if you can call it operating) they have 8 properties listed in the Leeds area.
Part of Spicerhaart, and is listed under divisions on their main website.
No, because I have other online/hybrid models that are competition. Not just you 'luddites'
The other agents with a similar model to ours charge between £400 and £500. We are already more expensive than the others. But because we split our fees, it's more attractive for the vendor in that we still have an incentive to sell the property.
Remember iSold? They went about charging around £300 up front and then £600 if the property sold (or something around that figure). Stopped operating after a couple of years - and that was even with the backing of Tesco
WOW Property charged a flat fee of £800. Went out of business within 2 years. And that was with a 'war chest' of around £1.25m back in 2008 (to be fair, the market wasn't the kindest!)
The model will evolve into the hybrid and fees could well go up. But they will only go up for the service that is provided. Something like this perhaps:
£200 for a valuation
£200 to list the property
£200 to accompany all viewings
£200 for sales progression
£200 on completion
(This is just an example, and just a 'what if' we did it this way, and certainly NOT something that we will be doing at any point soon (unless the need arises))
Would that be nice, eh? Getting paid for every job you carry out...
"My role is now working on the company strategy and how to grow our business into a monster, and how we can change estate agency whilst doing that. And just one of those strategies, is to make predictions, and to post on forums like this."
But Mr Day - just charging a hundred quid more per property would give you MASSIVE growth WITHOUT having to 'do' any more than you already are, surely? £200 - you're megaquids in - and STILL cheaper than us luddite traditional Agents, so the instructions will still be as easy-peasy to pick up as they are now, will they not?
Anyway - you state above (loosely) that you're a dragon... luckily we have our own George (Daws xFNAEA) whose trusty sword has slain many a dragon in past battles on this site!
FIGHT ON!! ;o)
PeeBee,
"With estate agency, you do all the work, whether the client is happy or not, and get paid sweet FA if you don't sell it. That is just completely bonkers."
MORE THAN HAPPY to agree with you on that front, Mr Day! ;o)
As I said earlier, years ago, they probably told the guy who first offered no sale-no fee that he was mad,
So PeeBee, if as you say there, you are in agreement that the 'conventional' business model is a nonsense, what, if anything are YOU doing to change it, and why show so much concern about those that are?
This is precisely what I'm looking into at the moment, and hoping that my employers might just be brave enough to be radical!
Quiet here in East Anglia today by the way :(
George,
'With a service industry it is not possible to receive identical services from two suppliers so vendors can only choose one or the other and so a service industry does not face the same challenges as your retail mates.'
That in itself may be a vaild point, but the High Street based service industry still faces the challenge of significantly reduced footfall, which you've not addressed. Some of the retailers I was referring to are specialist retailers who are not necessarily suffering from competition from online sales, but more from the reduction in footfall.
I'm going to slightly disagree with you that 'it's not possible to receive identical services from two suppliers'. It is quite possible for two online service providers to offer an identical service, but is of course the quality of that service that varies, and if the quality of that service makes it unfit for purpose, there would be a recourse in law.
USP, do any of us really have a unique part of our service, other than ourselves and the quality of our service? I'm sure if we are honest, none of us do anything radically different to the agent next door, so it then again comes down to the personalities involved and the quality of their service, and that of course applies equally to High Street or Online.
To be fair PeeBee, I'm with you on the Harwell chap
Although I applaud his 'front', and without being harsh (because obviously I agree with his concept), I would probably advise him to 'wind his neck in' a little bit. Partly why I stopped posting on this thread (and ignored him - Sorry Matt, if you're still reading.)
You see, he has only been going for a few weeks, and his instruction levels on Rightmove are listed at 2 in the last 2 weeks (as of yesterday). He is quite rightly going to get ripped apart.
We have spent years building up our business quietly going about our business, from 2 new listings on Rightmove every 2 weeks like Harwell (although it was never ever that low, even in the first week, so I don't quite know what he is up to!) to now listing well over over 100 from the last 2 weeks on Rightmove, across our 7 offices and with 19 staff.
It's not easy, and I have seen all too many 'online estate agents' or 'hybrid models' fall by the wayside, so I would suggest that people who start the 'next big thing' to maybe be a little humble (and invisible) about it until you at least have a little traction in the market place and space. I didn't see the point back then of spending much of my time posting on forums like this when, in my opinion, you should be spending time on building your brand and your business, which is what I concentrated on doing.
So PeeBee, no, I haven't recently negotiated a sale for a client. For me, I am now in a position where my role is not 'winning instructions' or 'agreeing sales' - I have people who work for me who are paid (very well) to do that. My role is now working on the company strategy and how to grow our business into a monster, and how we can change estate agency whilst doing that. And just one of those strategies, is to make predictions, and to post on forums like this.
"With estate agency, you do all the work, whether the client is happy or not, and get paid sweet FA if you don't sell it. That is just completely bonkers."
MORE THAN HAPPY to agree with you on that front, Mr Day! ;o)
OK, well shall we compare apples with apples then, as you seem to want to do:
This story has been running for a total of 7 days with nearly 150+ comments.
The story mentioned has been running for months and months and had around 170-180 posts after 1 week of being live as well...Not too far off that now are we...?
It also shows how stuck in the dark ages estate agency is.
I have been on Facebook for 7 years and an avid Twitter user for my company for around 3-4 years.
#stuckinthedarkages
"And I am fascinated to learn where I have contradicted myself on these threads??"
Erm... show me where I said you did...
IF you want me to find them and point them out to you, then you know already that I'll happily do so for you... :o)
"Between you and Peter Hendry there are about 200 posts!! Granted, even if you took those out, it would still be more than this thread, but Jesus PeeBee - what on earth do you do all day if you have time to be posting so many comments on these stories??!"
Check the dates and times of my posts, Sir. Before 9... after 5... weekends - and some through the day - mainly lunchtimes, when, while working THROUGH it (lunch is for wimps...) I post here just to annoy you!
Then... I sell some houses - or at least try bl00dy hard to. Day in; day out.
What about YOU, Sir - when was he last time you negotiated a sale on behalf of one of your vendors? Mine was two hours ago - in the living room, at a viewing. Been on any of those recently?
You should be more annoyed at Mr Wells for hijacking your precious thread than you are with me.
Or maybe you should be thanking him - and the 'opinion' chap. Let's face it - without THEIR input this thread would hardly have hit double figures!
Yes, but it is a service industry that needs to change.
Tell me another service industry that charges, but only when they complete the job.
Solicitors - No (apart from the no win, no fee accident solicitors who are a rip off. See the trend)
Accountants - No
Hospitality Industry - No
Travel - No
Insurance - No
And let's add some trades in there as well:
Plumbers - No
Builders - No
Hairdressers - No
You pay them all for the work that they do. If you don't like the work they have done, you ask for a discount because you are not happy with the work that was carried out, but you will still pay a hairdresser a certain amount for a crappy hair cut, or a plumber an amount for the shoddy workmanship - it is still an amount of money.
And that is what motivates the company to provide as good a service as possible, because you don't want to have to give a discount for a crap service. If we provided a crap service, we would be forever getting complaints and then giving discounts to compensate for the service provided - eventually, I would be out of business, so there is no point in me delivering a below par or less-than-expected service. It has to be up there with what the client expects.
With estate agency, you do all the work, whether the client is happy or not, and get paid sweet FA if you don't sell it. That is just completely bonkers.
Not only that, but with your model of estate agency, you could argue that the service suffers if the property doesn't sell, because there is no money to give back, so there is no 'risk' to the company for providing a shoddy service.
We, on the other hand have money to lose if the service is shoddy, so it never is.
Twitter was very very much in its infancy back then, only in the last 12 months or so has social media started to feature with the principals and partners of EA firms.
Good try but another point made you didn't think through
It was mentioned briefly why there is a difference between trends in retail and trends in services.
Distance selling regulations mean that if goods are not as described they can be sent back, that is not the same with services.
Retailers are struggling because they have not found a way to stop being surrogate showrooms for their 'best price -----" online competitors.
With a service industry it is not possible to receive identical services from two suppliers so vendors can only choose one or the other and so a service industry does not face the same challenges as your retail mates.
Not once has anyone mentioned a USP of online agency, other than price, online has nothing new to offer and nothing that a traditional agent can not match. Without a USP what is the point?
If one trawls through that long PH blog thread it covers a lot of this ground and there are a catalogue of conversations and points raised there that simply go un answered or unchallenged.
This next few years bizzo is turning out to be a very long time and perhaps Mr Hendry's fortunes are a good indication of what Adam and Matt can look forward to.
There are also 34 tweets and 26 FB posts on this story PeeBee. Only 8 tweets about the article you mention. Wonder what this tells us?
That perhaps this story has more significance to 'the outside world' than the ramblings of someone about house prices on an industry website/forum?
Between you and Peter Hendry there are about 200 posts!! Granted, even if you took those out, it would still be more than this thread, but Jesus PeeBee - what on earth do you do all day if you have time to be posting so many comments on these stories??!
Surely you should be selling some houses or something? I certainly wouldn't want to be your employer. Or your client for that matter...You should maybe do some work...
Or maybe you don't have any houses on your books, because they're going on with online estate agents!? ;-)
Have to say, Adam has got a point, although this thread might not be the actual record breaker, the thread from the same day about Sarah Beeny's Tepilo becoming an online agent didn't create anywhere near the interest, so perhaps Adam can be proud that his company attracts so much concern and perhaps fear from the establishment.
Disappointed that although it has been highlighted again by 'My opinion on the story' (and before anyone asks, no, not me using a different name) no-one has really picked up on my comments about what is happing with the bigger picture in the High Street, so I thought as this thread is still running, I'd chip in again.
I have several friends who are independent retailers in our High Street, all of whom are really concerned about the ongoing impact of online sales and the ever reducing footfall on their particular businesses. What I really fail to understand is why there are so many agents out there who seem to think that agency will be exempt from this trend.
We don't have any particularly active 'online' agents in this part of East Anglia at the moment, but there is one in town who withdrew from the High Street in 2008 (for hopefully obvious reasons) and subsequently changed their business model and fee structure, and from chatting to them, they are making a good living, and have no intention of coming back.
Picking up Adam's comment 'We are estate agents who charge for the work that we do.' I'll say again, I have in all my 25 years in agency, held the view that the 'conventional' model is a complete nonsense from a business point of view, and actually I quite like the idea of being the agent where you get what you pay for, rather than being the agent who charges you for all the abortive costs they have, which is why, as I said earlier, I'm looking very closely at our business model for my employers.
As someone said earlier, remember that the 'establishment' at the time probably told the first agent to offer no sale-no fee that they were completely barmy and that it would never work!
Hhmmm. I wouldn't say 'rank amateur' Peebee. Maybe semi professional ;-)
But i'm getting better...
And I am fascinated to learn where I have contradicted myself on these threads??
"But anyway, enough of this thread. It has broken all records on EAT. It broke the last record, which was held by......oh wait....a story about H*****d (sorry - you get NO SEO uplift from me...) again I think??"
Not.
Even.
Close.
http://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/news_features/Peter-Hendry-blog
517 posts - and I'm still waiting a response from the man himself to take it further.
Mind you - that was August 2012, and he's NEVER finished a single argument he started yet - so I'm done holding my breath.
Basically, Mr Day - you're a rank amateur at stirring up a furore, judging by this measly show of numbers...
I have taken threads well beyond 200 posts. Yours is a seriously poor attempt at self promotion and because you have now established a firm record of contradiction will always struggle to be taken seriously.
If one knows where to look there are threads still rumbling on 2 years later.
There was a time when a Friday Rightmove thread woulf hit 100 posts by lunchtime but sadly the HPC malcontents robbed EAT of a lot of good informed posters who simply gave up on EAT altogether.
Opinion Chap,
I'll make the point again, because you obviously did not read what I said, I quoted a totally stand alone post from George Daws, unedited, nothing cut out!
He does then quote an experience with Autotrader as evidence, and as you will see, I indicated my understanding that the internet is not perfect, and things do go wrong, but, as we all know, to make the statement that people are suspicious of the internet is not born out by FACTS, which clearly show that internet usage is increasing. There were figures below quoted from the British Retail Consortium' and the Centre for Retail Research which clearly show that high street footfall is decreasing as internet usage increases.
Interestingly, none of the 'anti online' posters have passed comment on that! You'll see that my thought was that if this trend continues, then Adam's prediction 'could' come to pass!
And, just for the record, I cannot see any evidence to suggest that this trend will not continue, and I assume from the continued huge investment being made by technology companies to improve the broadband infrastructure and the ever increasing numbers of new mobile gadgets, and the work being done by many high street names to make their products more accessible via the internet, neither can they!
'Ego', not me, just fascinated as to why there are people out there with heads buried in the sand and seemingly refusing to acknowledge that there is chance that the way we do business might change!
Note I didn't use the word 'possibility' as PeeBee will doubtless come back in his usual fashion, which is of course to play with semantics and numbers to try to 'prove' people wrong.
'Trolling' not really, just challenging!
That is still where you're wrong PeeBee. I still don't think you 'get it', or George Daws, for that matter.
OK, here is the simplest way I can put it:
We are estate agents who charge for the work that we do.
How revolutionary is that? Getting actually paid for everything we do, rather than just the successes who are punished with all the costs of the failures, like you guys do...?
But anyway, enough of this thread. It has broken all records on EAT. It broke the last record, which was held by......oh wait....a story about Hatched again I think??
Ahhh... THAT will teach me to read before I post - we're still at it, I see! Okay...
'My opinion on the story'
"Must have been a difficult couple of days for you Sir, as I get the impression that you are not really used to people standing up to you!"
Nope - not in the slightest. I love it, actually, when someone with a pair trades words. Doesn't happen often enough, actually.
I am guessing here - but I see you as a 'foot in both camps' kind of chap. Am I right? Doesn't necessarily want to admit that one day we MIGHT all be trading from our bedrooms or rented office spaces out of town - but nevertheless doesn't want to be caught with the old trousers round the ankles in whatever time it takes for this 'revolution' to happen.
Maybe you're just thinking that it COULD be the way forward. Maybe you've lost some instructions to these players - and see it as lost revenue.
SO... what do you do? Maybe have a slice of each cake? For all I know you could be one of the 'Big 4' the original poster refers to - you could just as easily be one of the stragglers. Or, of course - you could just be watching and waiting for the elephant in the room to trumpet its' arrival.
Me - I'm getting on with what I do best - sitting in my office, greeting visitors, and loving offering them a service they clearly appreciate.
If - and I stress the word IF - the predictions of Mr Day become reality, then I will no doubt (assuming that it is within what is left of my working life...) 'embrace' the change out of need and adapt accordingly.
Of course - IF the prediction is correct, then I would assume that fees will rise somewhat as there will be less need to 'differentiate'.
You do have to admit though, surely, as a clearly educated chap, that offering 'all' the bells and whistles at what is a fraction of the price of pretty much all of the competition leads to eyebrow twitching - which in my opinion is their biggest PROBLEM - not USP.
After all - my old man used to say "there's no such thing as a free lunch". So did his old man before him... and his.
Well... I guess none of what as gone on below even matters anymore - story has dropped off 'Latest 30' so it's now destined for the murky depths.
Probably a good place for it.
But - those that post and boast note that the past is TOO EASILY dragged up from those murky depths... and often bites your @$$ on the way past! ;o)
I have followed the whole thread and felt that opiion was hardly any kind of explanation why Daws and Peebee were wrong.
By leaving out the salient bit of Mr Daw' sentence in your first precis you were doing so to make him sound a stupid internet denyer when he had explained fully how those with no tangible or physical presence were at liberty to get up to all sorts of things.
You might well have stood up to the both but you certainly failed to dent Mr daws arguments why 7000 agent will not be wiped off the High Street by the likes of Day and Wells.
For you to win this discussion you need to give the reasons why Agents will be wiped off the High Street and say what is so good about Day and Well's offering that will cause the decimation of the traditional model.
Your opinion failed to do that (both times) so effectively you have been reduced to nothing more than a troll who wanted to have the last word.
Please feel free to reply after all to read this your ego will have made you hunt down this story which is now officially lost to the broadband wilderness.
Just for the benefit of the last poster, who has it seems commented without reading the whole thread, you'll see I did give my full opinion much earlier, I've reproduced it below to save you wading through.
And if you care to look, you will see that I actually copied a stand alone post from Mr Daws, so not quite sure how you think I've taken that out of context!
Added by My opinion on the story on 2013-11-11 17:34:30
My opinion on the story.
I've followed this one with great interest, and it seems to me that there are lots of agents out there who have no desire to modernise, and have closed minds to anything other than the conventional high street model, and are obviously frightened of the 'online' competition
There have been mentions in this thread of the way the High Street is changing, but none of the 'usual suspects' as Adam called them have attempted to address that issue.
It seems to me as well that an ever increasing number of people transact all sorts of business online, so why not agency as well? If current High Street' trends continue, I can see a time where agents move 'upstairs' and Adam's predictions 'could' come true.
Maybe, despite your carping criticism, Harwell Estates have a good model, with an up front fee and a fee on successful completion.
Given the amount of abortive work we all do, and the fact that those that do actually sell pay for all those abortive costs, that would be a better model for both public and agents.
And just a little note for PeeBee, who I assume to be an educated man,
"There are those who refuse to acknowledge that there is any possibility that there can ever be anything other than the current high street model."
Oh come on! This all comes down to POSSIBILITIES??
Okay - there is a POSSIBILITY that I will win the Lottery tonight. Doesn't mean that I should go out and order a new Aston on the strength of that possibility, does it?
There are, of course many words in the English language that have different meanings according to context. Just to make it clear I'll re-phrase the sentence:
"There are those who refuse to acknowledge that there is ever going to be anything other than the current high street model."
There is of course the possibility that you might win the lottery, which of course provide you buy your ticket, then becomes a matter of chance.
You did, of course understand exactly what I meant, but as it seems you always do, had to try to find some smart Alec way to tell me I'm wrong.
Must have been a difficult couple of days for you Sir, as I get the impression that you are not really used to people standing up to you!
In George's defense he covered why, in his opinion, people are getting fed up with the internet and the google tracking thing plus he has clearly said that it is the people who trade off the internet people are suspicious of. I think that you deserved the remedial sideswipe given you chose to only part quote him in your precis first time around, giving the definite impression that you had listened to what he had said but only taken in the bits of your choosing and quoted them out of context.
If you do have an opinion on this subject it is possibly good manners to share it rather than just troll two blokes are putting a strong argument for their case when everyone on the other side is simply ignoring their facts or questions.
"PeeBee still thinks that everyone is entitled to his opinion, although he's not really expressed an opinion, merely trying to tell us that everyone else is wrong!"
Oh I don't think so. I have expressed my opinion. I have made my opinion abundantly clear. It is the same opinion that I have had, and expressed, for several years now on this site... and it isn't going to change anytime soon simply because it doesn't suit your - or anyone else's - wishes, wants or needs.
You say I am saying "everyone else is wrong". WHO is the "everyone else" you are referring to? Seems to me that this thread is split fairly well down the middle - if you remove all the multiple posts by eejits like me and you. OOPS - sorry - that wasn't meant to be a personal insult to you... and I DID leave out the 'others' that I am supposed to be slagging off.
"There are those who refuse to acknowledge that there is any possibility that there can ever be anything other than the current high street model."
Oh come on! This all comes down to POSSIBILITIES??
Okay - there is a POSSIBILITY that I will win the Lottery tonight. Doesn't mean that I should go out and order a new Aston on the strength of that possibility, does it?
"There are those who are keeping a wary eye on the future and wondering how it will all pan out."
That would be EVERY responsible Estate Agent - although WHO the competition are and where they operate from is irrelevant...
"And there are those who are prepared to embrace the future and are changing the way agency is done."
Ahhh... I see. Embracement. THAT'S what this is all about. I perceive a trickle of moistness at the very reading of the word.
I "change the way Agency is done" on a DAILY basis. I don't need a new challenger to keep me on my toes or up my game.
That being said - I welcome the challenge. Like I said to (...name withheld for non-vilifying reasons...):
Bring.
It.
On.
Added by George Daws xFNAEA on 2013-11-12 05:09:58
'No, because people in general are now becoming more suspicious of the internet and those who trade there.'
Not my version of what was said, Mr Daws, but your EXACT words!
'And now you know why I hate trying to discuss anything with remedials'
Back to the insults then?
One can teach a class for a whole year and even the apparently brightest people will come back to their own version of of what is being said, stick their version on the exam paper and fail.
And now you know why I hate trying to discuss anything with remedials.
So there you have it gentlemen,
George Daws says online agency will never take off, because people are now suspicious of the internet!
PeeBee still thinks that everyone is entitled to his opinion, although he's not really expressed an opinion, merely trying to tell us that everyone else is wrong!
There are those who refuse to acknowledge that there is any possibility that there can ever be anything other than the current high street model.
There are those who are keeping a wary eye on the future and wondering how it will all pan out.
And there are those who are prepared to embrace the future and are changing the way agency is done.
A fair summary of the comments below.
Time will tell the wiser!
I spotted the scam as soon as the car was in Spain and created a convincing ghost of their ghost in order to provide an IP trace on who was doing the scamming.
I provided the scammers with enough evidence of sticking £7,150 into their Escrow but strangely it wasn't visible at their end and they wouldn't send me a car (Not bad for a sleepy luddite!)
Autotrader can't stop these characters and take no responsibility for the losses.
I used Autotrader as an example because they are a few years advanced on where we are now with every car salesman having the opportunity to open an online open all hours dealership. It hasn't happened because the hours, the rewards and administration are not worth the hassle to earn XXX with no days off and no holidays.
Good as it is Autotrader now has a known problem which they seem powerless to control and that is the point about an online service industry like hours. With retail one can send the goods back; distance selling regs provide a crucial protection for goods and that aids the rise of online retail. I can't think of a way of returning a poor or non service.
There will be folk who send £200 to get the guy to call, take details and photos, there will be folk who take their own photos and work through an online template set of details. There will be folk who part with the EPC fee upfront.
There is a threat to the traditional UK agency model but it is not as Adam Day claimed.
George Daws,
The company that own Autotrader have in the last year stopped publishing the magazine, why? no-one buys it any more, all their business is through the website! Come to think of it, where was the magazine sold? oh yes, that would be on the High Street.
You tell an interesting story, which I trust is not from personal experience! But I'm not sure how many people would actually pay for a car online without actually seeing it, and more fool them if they do! I've recently used Autotrader myself, to purchase a specific model that I could not find in any of the local dealers, so I searched on Autotrader, found 3 potentials, went to look at them, made a decision and once I was happy parted with my money. In many respects (apart from the obviously simpler financial transaction) an identical process to finding a property.
Of course, we are selling bricks and mortar, so hopefully that property which you find on the internet in Bolton is actually there, and not in Spain.
By the same token, I really don't think that anyone would pay a fee to an online agent without seeing some evidence that they do exist, and provide the service they claim, and are not just scammers.
Sir - unless I am doing you an injustice, that is...
"...although I note that you couldn't resist mentioning Mr Day."
What would you prefer - "the author of the article"?.
"You see, what the last few posts have really been about is to establish whether, with your long experience, you do really have an opinion that is worth listening to, or whether you are just here purely to try vilify certain individuals as it would appear from your previous posts on this thread."
Those certain individuals made the original statements - I simply respond to what I see and understand or perceive from what I see. If I am wrong, then I welcome being corrected, and will admit freely my error.
In this instance - I would respectfully suggest that I am still waiting to be corrected on any account.
A niche market is the subset of the market on which a specific product is focusing. The market niche defines the product features aimed at satisfying specific market needs, as well as the price range, production quality and the demographics that is intended to impact. It is also a small market segment.
For example, sports channels like STAR Sports, ESPN, STAR Cricket, and Fox Sports target a niche of sports lovers. Every product can be defined by its market niche. The niche market is highly specialized, aiming to survive among the competition from numerous super companies.
Even established companies create products for different niches, for example, Hewlett-Packard has all-in-one machines for printing, scanning and faxing targeted for the home office niche while at the same time having separate machines with one of these functions for big businesses.
In practice, product vendors and trade businesses are commonly referred as mainstream providers or narrow demographics niche market providers (colloquially shortened to just niche market providers). Small capital providers usually opt for a niche market with narrow demographics as a measure of increasing their financial gain margins.
Nevertheless, the final product quality (low or high) is not dependent on the price elasticity of demand; it is associated more with the specific needs that the product is aimed at satisfying and, in some cases, aspects of brand recognition (e.g., prestige, practicability, money saving, expensiveness, planet environment conscience or power).
If the above is correct, the future looks bright for the niche market providers.
People are now beginning to turn their back on Google and google products.
The targeted adverts everyone now receives is a result of Google tracking with advertisers paying to buy information from Google. Many informed internet users are switching to the likes of DuckDuck Go as their search engine rather than have their search for a pair or Stainless steel ball raced parliament hinges live with them for months and months to come and be the subject of countless emails and offers
Autotrader is the greatest analogy for us agents and offers 20/20 hindsight why Estate agents will not be wiped off the high Street.
Try a search for say an Audi A1 and then watch the fun begin. Typically you will find a car that checks out with a £2.50 HPI check . That is £2.50 in someone’s pocket but no matter the car checks out as legit, make an enquiry and all of a sudden the car isn't in England it is in Spain but that is no worry, Google Wallet will take care of escrow, the funds aren't released till you are in receipt of the car and happy with it. Only the very keenest eye will spot that the fully authentic looking Google.com Google wallet URL is a fake and once funds are transferred they are lost.
As this charge towards Online, no physical presence Agency evolves what starts out as good and honest containing only good and honest Agents will become the new easy money source for scammers.
"List you property for £200, 50% reduction if not sold in 8 weeks" a facsimile of the very first online property scam that dates back to 1995
In the same way as one can not tell the genuine car sellers from the scammers on the once mighty Autotrader, punters soon fall back into the comfort of having someone they can shout at and having a desk they can thump when it goes wrong.
This isn't a dig at matt but he has provided a perfect example of why Online Agency has to be better before it can dominate the industry. He did type two different accounts of the same day of trading, one factual, one a bit over-egged to make a point. But even when that is pointed out there is no explanation or apology he simply pops up on Monday morning being all chummy and nice with everyone without the fear of his Friday being seen because it has slipped down into the ether. That is the problem with the Internet, anyone can say anything, publish it as fact and be completely anonymous and can be someone else tomorrow
The internet is being ruined by those that take advantage of its absence of borders or policing and the anonymity it provides to those who would do wrong. Those who are no longer fascinated by how clever the internet is,all thetechnology and toys and brillant apps are becoming jaundiced towards it.
The internet is not going away people won’t stop using the internet but their opinion will drive the change that alters the way people use the internet and the logical and important part of that change from our Industry’s perspective is our presence.
Ah, PeeBee, it does matter who created the niche, if the online agents created it themselves. Lets use a different word for niche, and say they have established a small foothold, and as the saying goes, 'from little acorns.......'
Interesting comment George Daws, and not born out by the evidence from retail where online sales are still growing rapidly, so perhaps you might care to elaborate and justify your comment.
And PeeBee, a better and obviously more considered post, although I note that you couldn't resist mentioning Mr Day. You see, what the last few posts have really been about is to establish whether, with your long experience, you do really have an opinion that is worth listening to, or whether you are just here purely to try vilify certain individuals as it would appear from your previous posts on this thread.
You did a bit better in your last post Sir!
No, because people in general are now becoming more suspicious of the internet and those who trade there.
It doesn't matter WHO 'created the niche' - it was created and therefore it is there to be filled by whomever wishes to give it a go.
Whether the person is a twelve-year old running out of their bedroom; a seasoned property professional with twenty quid to their name or another who happens to be a multi-millionaire, they can all give it their best. That's the beauty of t'interweb, innit - but in my humble opinion that is exactly the same reason that it will only remain a niche - not 'the norm'.
I still firmly believe (and if you care to look back into my previous posts on hundreds of threads on this site - many of which were posted when I wasn't practicing as a Resi Agent - you will find me saying this again and again...) that when it comes to a person's largest and most valuable asset, the great majority of owners want to deal with a traditional model rather than the alternatives that are available.
Am I saying that the online model (or the 'hybrid' such as that of Mr Wells) is destined to failure? No, not necessarily. THAT depends on the individual businesses I would suggest - but that is the same with any that follow the traditional model.
It may even gain a few percentage points in 'market share'.
BUT... it will in my opinion never become 'the norm'.
And, unlike Mr Day's, MY prediction does not expire by 2020. I'll extend mine until 'Hell freezes over + one day'.
Ah, there you go PeeBee, straightforward question, but still unanswered.
The article relates to a forecast that thousands of agents will be wiped off the high street in the NEXT FEW YEARS. You asked for my opinion, and I told you, that given ongoing retail and other trends affecting the high street, I think there is a strong possibility that prediction will come true.
I did see your statement you have copied, but all you have told us is that online fill a niche market NOW, not what you think may happen in a few years time,
I'm not expecting you to have a crystal ball, and lets pretend for a moment that the forecast came from someone other than Adam, but I'm sure someone of your experience must have an opinion as to how things will develope in the next few years, and I would genuinely like to hear that opinion
And a question arising from your statement, you say that online agents fill a niche that was created 'FOR' them, can you explain who created that niche, or did they perhaps do that themselves?
Remember that long before we were able to have these discussions on the interweb, the establishment probably thought that the first agent to offer no sale-no fee was mad, and said it would never work. Innovation, over a period of time can become the norm!
Over to you Sir!
Many thanks PeeBee for bringing this to my attention!
As you have more than likely noticed, the property in question has been on the market with another agent and (just for the records and if you are interested) the link was already embedded in our database (which lives within our website) which meant when we switched the status from OMOA to OMHE the existing link carried through.
This is being fixed as I type as is the front picture...
Have a great evening!
Ho hum...
I repeat what I said earlier - look and you will find it...
"Don't get me wrong, Sir - I am actually NOT knocking your 'success'. You and your counterparts are filling a niche I the market that was created for you.
But you ARE a niche. Be the best at what you do."
I would suggest THAT explains exactly where I see 'online' and 'off high street' Agency sitting in the big picture.
Time - and ONLY time - will tell, won't it.
PeeBee,
My opinion on the story.
I've followed this one with great interest, and it seems to me that there are lots of agents out there who have no desire to modernise, and have closed minds to anything other than the conventional high street model, and are obviously frightened of the 'online' competition
There have been mentions in this thread of the way the High Street is changing, but none of the 'usual suspects' as Adam called them have attempted to address that issue.
It seems to me as well that an ever increasing number of people transact all sorts of business online, so why not agency as well? If current High Street' trends continue, I can see a time where agents move 'upstairs' and Adam's predictions 'could' come true.
Maybe, despite your carping criticism, Harwell Estates have a good model, with an up front fee and a fee on successful completion.
Given the amount of abortive work we all do, and the fact that those that do actually sell pay for all those abortive costs, that would be a better model for both public and agents.
What we don't know of course, is your opinion of the story? I think from your attempts to belittle both Adam and Matt I could hazard a good guess, but bearing in mind that the story is not about Adam Day taking over the world, but is really about the possibility that 'off high street' and different fee model could become the norm it might be interesting to hear opinions from both yourself and George Daws, but only if you could do that objectively and without resorting to criticism of either individuals or their business.
So the simple question is, do you think 'off high street', or 'online' and the different fee structures they currently offer will ever become the norm, and if not, why not?
If you are able to provide a concise answer without the usual bull, then please do.
Mr Wells.
In trying to be 'nice' to you today, I should draw to your attention that clicking the new property listed on your company website today takes you Rightmove as you would expect - but in this instance to ANOTHER AGENT'S listing, not yours.
Hope this helps.
The thing is if our posting styles were any different you wouldn't have taken the trouble to click on latest 30 stories scolled down half a page and then bothered to type a long reply.
You've let you Father Down, you've let you mother down and worse of all you have let yourself down.
Are you my dad or something? let ourselves down, DFO!
"Ever heard the saying that 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit' "
Yup. But it is also one of the funniest - and as it stems from reality, also one of the most relevant and accurate.
Am I sarcastic? Probably.
Was I being sarcastic in the post you are clearly referring to? No.
Your opinion is that I was. Opinions are great - we are all entitled to one.
And while you are on - what is YOUR opinion on the actual story?
Truth be told you guys have had dibs on this post for ages and reduced it playground taunts. Love in aside, this odd couple, given their vast experience have let themselves down. Add in Harwell and they have their very own Bermuda Triangle where all common sense, reason and class just disappears. Time to call it a night guys.
A little selection of PeeBee's 'valid or objective' comments just from this thread.
Mr Day - I repeat my previous offer to you.
Bring.
It.
On.
I'M waiting for you...
Hmmm...
Interesting factoid - 'NUARME' is, in fact, an anagram of MANURE.
I trust this explains a lot... ;o)
It's your ball - if you want to play with it in a big crowded playground you've got to learn to play fair.
Or you'll get your @$$ kicked - and your ball for that matter.
Like I said earlier, Mr Day.
Bring it on.
In a similar train of thought - awareness of what the Hendrys of this world are prostituting round as being gospel is a must-know.
Typical all blow and no show that you have inherited from the other onlines and Mr Realising Reality.
It isn't always what you can see on the surface - the currents below are what drag you down into oblivion, Sir.
They WERE - by 2010 - already where, today, you merely DREAM to ASPIRE to ACHIEVE getting "somewhere close to"...
Getting your words all mixed up, Mr Wells. It's a common condition on this site - and affects those whose heads are furthest up their own tailpipes.
Keep the self-inflating posts coming - we will extract all the helium and bring you back down to earth with a clatter every time.
You make it SOOOOO easy.
Your existing vendors - including the three you took on yesterday (which I can't wait to see the appear on Rightmove - why aren't they on already... you work twelve hours a day seven days a week...) will no doubt be thrilled to read the extent of your commitment to them.
Hmmm... after HOW MANY touting letters or knocks on doors, I wonder?
ANYWAY... back to Mr Day, seeing as this thread is meant to be HIS (latest in a steady string...) fifteen minutes of fame.
It is not ME who is claiming to be the new Hovis.
It is not ME who is quoting statistics you can drive an oil tanker through. Sideways.
This is not MY ego trip.
And just for you George Daws, one of your very own.
'I do hate trying to discuss anything with the remedials'
'You can't just haul up here and anonymously claim Peebee doesn't know what he is talking about'
and of course, George Daws and PeeBee are your real names! You will note that the people PeeBee 'eloquently dismembers are not anonymous!
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye
Might I respectfully suggest that you also remember that this is, as you rightly say a business to business site that brings competition together to discuss and debate, and that you both refrain from making pointed comments about specific individuals, and only contribute when you have a worthwhile point to make!
This is a business to business site that brings competition together to discuss and debate.
If you can't separate business from personal, don't come here.
You can't just haul up here and anonymously claim Peebee doesn't know what he is talking about. Time and time and time and time and time ……again he comes on here and eloquently dismembers people like Peter Hendry, Jonathon Davies, Adam Day and now Matt Wells. He is not being mean but simply putting the counter argument to very often simply outrageous claims and statements
Just because you can type the words it doesn't mean Peebee's comments aren't valid or objective. The whole point of debating is rather than just whinge "you're being personal, you aren't being objective" you have to come on here and say why.
Ever heard the saying that 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit'
and for Mr Daws,
'Anyone who has done the job and who has read/ followed Peebee's coments on EAT will understand he has experience and should be respected.'
Perhaps PeeBee's comments might command some respect if they were objective and not personal! You've obviously not noticed that he only comments where he thinks he can 'score points' against those others expressing an opinion.
Hmmm...
So giving someone the title 'Sir' is childish, is it? Really - in my formative years it was called 'respect'.
Funny how times change...
Anyways - back to my 'qualification' to post.
I think you will find that EVERYTHING I have posted is what any reasonable 'man in the street' could quite easily have come up with, thanks to the wonders of the technology that the Mr Wells (is THAT better?) etc of the industry rely on to give them what they perceive to be a competitive edge.
For what it's worth - entered the property world in 1978 at a ripe old age of 16. Been a tea-boy... sales neg... manager... area manager... director... (in each one of them, making tea is the most challenging task!).
35 years and counting.
"Industry authority"? Not even maybe.
I leave that to the "experts".
Anyone who has done the job and who has read/ followed Peebees coments on EAT will understand he has experience and should be respected.
The only reason Matt wants to know who Peebee is is to attempt to rake up some means of discrediting him or his opinions as a desperate last flurry in a battle that is already lost.
Run through the list of people who have gone belly to belly with Peebee and to date only one has caused him to sweat. If I were Ros renshaw I would have Peebee on the payroll for only when he kicks off do stories normally reach 100+ posts.
Sir, (as you like to address everyone in your childish manner)
You take great delight in attempting to pull apart any statement made that differs from your totally narrow view of things, and seem happy to spend half your life so doing!
You, Sir, contribute nothing of any consequence to this discussion, other than providing some amusement with your pathetic attempts to undermine others.
It seems to me then Sir, perfectly reasonable to be asked to produce some sort of indication that you have any expereince on which to base the position of industry authority that you pompously set yourself up to be!
That, Sir, is of no consequence to this or any other discussion.
It is not ME who is claiming to be the new Hovis.
It is not ME who is quoting statistics you can drive an oil tanker through. Sideways.
This is not MY ego trip.
Just out of interest PeeBee who do you work for or what is your agency called?
Working time regualtions and minimum wage don't apply to sole traders so Matt is at liberty to work whatever hours he likes but he can not ask or expect any employee to do the same. If he employs anyone somehow he has to cover 84 hours a week in blocks of 37-40 hours or shoulder the burden of making up the hours himself, hence he has created a gimmick 12 hour day for no obvious reason.
Matt then walks a very difficult employment law tightrope if his self employed partners / negs are deemed to only have one employer.
You might not follow my logic Peebee but building a business to 75+ staff with no external investment or borrowing means I have confidence my maths works for me.
ANYWAY... back to Mr Day, seeing as this thread is meant to be HIS (latest in a steady string...) fifteen minutes of fame.
"So, I don't see us as an online agent. We can't be an online estate agent - we have 7 offices around the country..."
REALLY?? On your own website, homepage, please let me quote YOUR words
"As one of the original, and still one of the largest ONLINE estate agents in the UK..."
"This video reveals exactly how, as ONLINE estate agents, we can afford to offer some of the lowest fees around,"
"We are the only ONLINE estate agents in the UK to..."
"We might be an ONLINE estate agent, but we still offer a complete estate agency service all across England & Wales."
"So what are you waiting for? Join the estate agency revolution today and sell your house ONLINE with..."
No - I don't see you as an online Agent either. Neither, reading all that, will the public, I'm sure.
I never expected to make a profit after just six months George and it would be foolish to think that was possible.
As stated in previous posts, I have covered my operational costs and Harwell Estates has no debt - you couldn't do that with a traditional High Street office model and I reckon the achievement after only six months would not be much better than what I have achieved!
What would you expect to achieve after six months - I would be genuinely interested to know in order to measure my success.
I did however set out to establish the brand in my region and that I have done...
The next six months will be the true test and I will happily keep you posted on the highs and lows.
Good luck in your own field and enjoy the weekend!
"With regards to our multi listings, each and every one has been with another agent first and before Harwell Estates were appointed - client choice!"
Hmmm... after HOW MANY touting letters or knocks on doors, I wonder?
George Daws xFNAEA...
He isn't a one-man band. He has one 'Local Partner' (and is madly advertising for others) - so methinks you need to do your sums again!
Mind you... SO DOES HE! ;o)
Sorry Matt, I can fully understand why you are waving a white flag and want this to end and I genuinely feel sorry that you made the mistake of trying to out box and out boast Peebee, however the point has to be made to the doubters on both sides of the discussion why online will not wipe thousands off the High Street.
You /Harwell Estates can currently offer 84 opening hours per week because there is only you to worry about, as soon as you try to employ staff, working time regulations mean your wage bill must be 224% higher than a conventional model to cover the same hours.
It is the business basics you are neglecting to think about that will prevent expansion of your online Agency.
You did make one final mistake, that of quoting Rightmove KPI's, part of what I do for a living involves knowing about RM & Zoopla stats, Comscore and Nielsen ratings. Taking agencies from where they are now to where they want to be.
What I can't work out is you mentioned having 3 main local competitors but have manged to be in 8th place. The real test is not how you compare on a wide and to be honest easily influenced and meaningless indicator but how your business stacks up against your main competitors.
You are working 7 days a week putting in 84 hours in that week and taking XXX profit from the business my guess is you are not even earning minimum wage over the 4300 hours you have to work as a sole trader each year.
With that said I have said enough until one of you wants another pop.
Good luck Matt! Please be successful with you online agency but at least do not make it so easy for your competition to pull the rug from under you.
What you fail to mention PeeBee is that we have a property under offer (Leeming Village) which is also for sale with another agent - it has to work both ways my friend!
Leeming Village was on the market for 12 months with another agent, Harwell Eststes were instructed and we sold it within a month!
With regards to Oak Tree Road which is under offer by another agent, the owners have requested that we keep it live until exchange - client choice!
With regards to our multi listings, each and every one has been with another agent first and before Harwell Estates were appointed - client choice!
Clients are choosing to use us...
"The long and short of it PeeBee is that our clients (old and new) have chosen to use us over a traditional model."
REALLY??
Please explain that sentence, when a good proportion of your listings are MULTIPLES.
One of them is actually listed as Under Offer by ANOTHER AGENT.
YET AGAIN, your own words do you harm.
Don't blame ME when they come back on you and bite your @$$.
Come on PeeBee...
Enough is surely enough!
We have every incentive to sell what we list because should a client choose to pay us £299 upfront we also charge a £300 success fee - you have been on my site so would know that!
Not every client however chooses to pay up front and 20% of our clients currently choose to pay .75% upon exchange as with a traditional fee model.
As far as getting our stock online - we are keen to get them live as soon as possible but (contrary to what some say and think of us) we also have to be compliant and practice due diligence.
The long and short of it PeeBee is that our clients (old and new) have chosen to use us over a traditional model.
Have a great day!
"Harwell Estates is built around a very simple frame and one that requires no more than three instructions per week with upfront fees of £299. If I achieve that (and I will on a consistent basis) then I earn very nicely thank you very much and I cover my operational costs including the money I have to pay to Rightmove"
Says it all, really.
NO need whatsoever to 'sell' what you list.
Your existing vendors - including the three you took on yesterday (which I can't wait to see the appear on Rightmove - why aren't they on already... you work twelve hours a day seven days a week...) will no doubt be thrilled to read the extent of your commitment to them.
Dear all,
Hello to you all from a sunny but cold North Yorkshire!
One thing has become very apparent throughout this conversation and that is that we are all very passionate about our brands and how we choose to run our businesses.
More than likely the reason why we set up in business?
Is there a right or a wrong model or way to provide a service to people who want to move...
What matters the most is that our clients are happy and our clients are very happy with how Harwell Estates operate, with what we do and what we charge.
I am sure your own clients think the same about your businesses...
Harwell Estates is built around a very simple frame and one that requires no more than three instructions per week with upfront fees of £299. If I achieve that (and I will on a consistent basis) then I earn very nicely thank you very much and I cover my operational costs including the money I have to pay to Rightmove.
Nobody can challenge that as not being a safe and sensible business model...
I have taken on board some of the comments made but I will not be changing the way my brand operates and I will never expand Harwell Estates in to a High Street premises.
I think it is now time to draw this chat to a positive conclusion and wish all involved the very best over the next few weeks as we head towards the end of another year.
Good luck to you all and keep moving people...
I've now got to go and put another for sale board up!
Regards,
Harwell Estates.
you really ought to sort out what is a personal insult and what is not.
On this business to business site there can be no personal insult but it is easy to claim such as a pathetic retort when the argument is lost.
You wanted to know why this thread is running on and on and all I have done is point oyut that Matt Wells has in a single day told 2 variations of the truth.
He told, probably the truth, in his tweet that on Friday he did two valuations, on here he claimed he had won 3 instruction to make a point at Peebee. Same day, same events but two versions. Call me old fashion but that in my day used to be called lying.
In previous threads Adam day has tied himself in knots over what he advertises as is fees when trying to win instructions but when he is crowing at another poster how successful he is a different story is told. That isn’t lying but it is misleading to advertise one fee but then sting punters with a whole list of add on charges.
You condone and congratulate them if you like but in my book neither is a fit and proper way to run a business.
The reply to my question in the post below serves to illustrate my point, the respondent, whoever they were, was unable to answer without resorting to making it personal, which does them no credit whatsoever!
The hard fact is, the online/off high street model does work, there are numerous successful companies operating in that way. The different fee structure with an up front fee is a huge benefit to the public, as they don't then end up paying for all the failed valuations, properties marketed but never sold and the rest of the work we all do for nothing with the conventional model.
On the point of Matt from Harwell Estates not having his name 'above the door', how many hundreds of other owner operated agencies up and down the country are exactly the same? I can think of several here in East Anglia alone, but I'm absolutely certain that Matt will have his name on his business cards and is not, as you suggest trying hide behind anonymity for some scurrilous reason.
So how about behaving in a grown up way, and contributing to the debate without resorting to personal insults?
simply because it is not the threat that is the problem but the very simple fact that some online boys seem incapable of telling a single version of the truth at any one time and even when there is blatant evidence of lying and skulduggery there is no shame or embarrassment
The reason why people like Matt Wells do not associate their name with their agency is so when there is a problem with one 'url agency' it can be closed down and a new one started within hours. It is either that or an incompetent understanding of how online operates.
Just looked at the Rightmove KPI's for the last 4 weeks and Harwell Estates are 8th out of 80 offices who have a presence in our area for new instructions! We are so rubbish...
Coo, this is more fun than playing on Facebook at the moment, and If there was a like button, I'd click it for your last post Adam, but I've not quite forgiven you for grouping me in with 'The Usual Suspects'. ;). I hope those reading this 'debate' will have worked out from my comments that I am open minded, and looking to the future, unlike most of the other contributors here!
Last time there was a thread about 'online' agents here, I posed the question 'why if online (or non high street if you prefer) agents are no threat to the conventional model, does the smallest mention get everyone so hot under the collar?
I never did get a response!
I also find it interesting that none of the 'ususal suspects' have commented on the figures I quoted form the British Retail Consortium' and the Centre for Retail Research, I guess that means that they are so self centered that they have no interest in considering the bigger picture of what is happening in the High Street. Still, they are the absolute authority,, so perhaps it's not that surprising after all.
As I said earlier, I'm reviewing our buisness model for my firm, time that others got their heads out of the sand and realised that as Mr Dylan put it 'the times they are a changing'
Is this still going? That's funny...
And the subject of online estate agents is 'not newsworthy'?
This is the most commented on a story of the entire year (I think possibly in EAT's history). On a story about an online agents' predictions.
So, we're no threat? And we're not newsworthy? If that's the case guys, stop posting and stop getting your knickers in such a twist.
It's time for a new type of estate agency chaps. And you better believe it's on its way...
Watch out estate agents....we're coming to get you.
I relented and had a look at your website, just to find out why you and I can get two different sets of search results for Harwell Estates. Because you have not attended properly to your tags the words Matt Wells (mat wells mat wels mattwells etc have no connection whatsoever with Harwell Estates.
If you are local Agent who operates online then you really ought to value your own name and reputation a bit more and at least have them associated to your website. If people know you and know you sell property they will struggle, as I did, to find your company.
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Then there is your twitter feed 22 hours ago you tweeted
"Two great valuation appointments today, two very happy clients and two new instructions coming very soon "
yet 4 hours earlier you were claiming the were in the bag.....all 3 of them?
"3 new instructions won today is not a bad score!"
As I said earlier you need to spend money on SEO and Social media.
Best you try again but read what I put into Google and see if you can get to your site that way. I just tried again and it is not possible,
It might be great doing business with yourself but if punters can't find you that is the only bloke you will be trading with.
It seems we haven't all gone home yet!
As for the numbers turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, Did you complete on 6 properties averaging £363,000 yesterday Matt?
And as for running an Agency at a fraction of the cost, long term you can't, you need to be spending more on SEO and social media than a high street Agency just to earn a fraction of the awareness a subliminal presence earns. If you want to keep on top of SEO and Social media you will need to employ someone full time at a cost greater than the only differentiator between your service and fee structure (if it is like Adams) and an office based agent; an office.
Matt under 20 seconds to find a hole in your offering really does show that while you can find you, you have not given enough thought to the things that are important to your style of Agency.
I don't mind the bother at all Wardy, for some reason people like Adam and Matt think that sniping at the competition so openly is in some way helping them when in fact all they are doing is writing their own demise on the internet. All the rubbish and contradictions Adam Day has published over the past 2 months can't be un-said or un-posted. Matt's comment about his 3 local rivals schmoozing and colluding with the local solicitors will not go un-noticed by either his competition or the local solicitors he has so publicly defamed, especially when it turns out I know one of them quite well.
George Daws xFNAEA Just typed Harwell Estates in to Google and it would appear that we show four times on page one!
Maybe you want to try again...
For the records - again!
We are not an online...
We simply choose not to burn the money needed to run a High Street office and offer a full estate agency service to a regional market for a fraction of the cost.
For an agent that has just been slated - 3 new instructions won today is not a bad score!
Anyone else taken on 3 new instructions today?
Silly me, I forgot you are all closed!
Save yourself the bother George.
By Matt's own admission he told us on another thread that the chap who built the site does so, part time in between running a news agents.
I didn't want to be rude to him but after reading his posts, I'm going to say it:
Matt. The website looks like its been coded by a five year old.
All that supposed managerial experience has taught you literally nothing about marketing.
Because I am struggling to remember why exactly the name Matt Wells or Harwell Estates is ringing a bell. I decided to Google matt wells harwell estates expecting to be taken straight to a fully seo/ social media optimised site, the very basic requirement of an online Estate Agent, sitting proudly at the top of a natural Google ranking.
I have to say that the results were so unexpected that I have to ask Matt do you actually exist or is this little spat with Peebee an attempt to promote yourself up the search engine results? I even came back here to check I had spelt your names correctly (twice)
(I have to admit I didn't look on page 3 of google results, perhaps you are there)
It IS with respect that I suggest you sort out the day one basics of Online Estate Agency before crowing how brilliant you are.
If I can be so very search specific and still not find you it doesn't say very much for your understanding of online anything. I think your only real option is to write or email everyone in the country with details of your URL. Because I still don’t know who or where Harwell Estates are without typing the URL provided I can’t comment on the other fundamentals and how your online presence compares with your competition who are obviously so relaxed about the threat you pose that they can take the afternoon off to Houndog a very consistent and reliable source of instructions.
Please come back and flame me as much as you like I will, free of charge provide you with an online critique of the things you are doing so badly wrong , but only if I managed to find you in the same way that your target audience will find you. Being best part of xxx miles from you I won’t see a For Sale Board, won’t see an advert in the paper and so must rely entirely on the internet. As it stands if it were not for this thread I would be totally unaware of you or what you do, so that isn’t a great start for any business that is internet reliant.
To the bloke who thinks me a sleepy Luddite, Matt Wells is demonstrating how much you need to worry about amateur Online Agents and their grasp of technology and the internet. As for me 'not getting it' in 20 seconds of putting myself in the shoes of an agency who has matt wells as competition I had armed myself with enough ammunition to ensure the only instruction he would ever win were the scraps that I would feel ashamed to put a sold board on.
" @PeeBee You're boring me now... "
Love it! Visions of steam emanating from ears as the above was typed...
Getting your words all mixed up, Mr Wells. It's a common condition on this site - and affects those whose heads are furthest up their own tailpipes.
You have now entered the confused mindspace of Mr Realising Reality. You guys could be related!
I'm not "boring" you - I'm simply outgunning you.
And remember, it's your OWN guns I'm turning on you - which makes it FAR worse to have to realise THAT particular reality...
Keep the self-inflating posts coming - we will extract all the helium and bring you back down to earth with a clatter every time.
You make it SOOOOO easy.
Oh - word of advice - drop all this '@' b0110ck$. You're not trying to impress your groupies on Tw@tter now...
@PeeBee You're boring me now...
Check us out in another 3 months, then another, then another, then another...
www.harwellestates.co.uk
@AdamDay Love what Hatched do on a national scale and keep up the great work...
There are plenty of take away pizza and kebab shops opening up who are looking for High Street premises - at least they will be put to good use and be open for business 7 days a week!
"So what's your excuse for not growing at 40% each year since 2010?"
Hmmm... although Ampersat's response was more than a match, Mr Day - I would offer the following for consideration for Agents whose business did NOT grow in the period - as you have previously inferred to be the 'norm':
Maybe, Mr Day... just maybe, because by 2010 businesses was already established? Because, by 2010, they had been through the
"WOW! - our first instruction... we're off to a brilliant start!
OHMYGOD there's the second - that's a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT INCREASE... aren't we brilliant?"
rigmarole that I outlined under here somewhere.
They WERE - by 2010 - already where, today, you merely DREAM to ASPIRE to ACHIEVE getting "somewhere close to"...
...SOMEDAY.
And THERE is the difference. PREDICTING doing it... and having already done it.
Last time repeated (for now, at least...) - Bring. It. On.
Harwell Estates -
"You obviously did not read my last post!...Harwell Estates are not an online agent, we are a traditional agent who chooses not to operate from the High Street"
Oh, Sir - but I DID!
At NO POINT did my original post say you were an online Agent. In my second post, I added the word "other" when referring to onlines - but you in one breath state that you "sit nicely in the middle" between the two camps, and in the next breath you ARE a traditional Agent (sans High Street window). Time to make up your mind, Sir.
Now to your belated answers.
"1 - Having managed a network of 36 offices for a corporate company, I think I am well placed to comment on the running costs of an average High Street office."
No, it doesn't. You know diddly about how much a small indy will be shelling out to keep the fires on.
"2 - The agent in question has had three sales in their pipeline for the last 12 months and I keep a close eye on those sales which complete and those which abort. For the simple reason, if they abort, I offer the assistance of my company. I know they charge 1% (at best) and the average price of their stock is £180,000, therefore they make £1800 per exchange x 3 exchanges over six months = £5400. If you could run a High Street office for six months for £5400 everyone would be doing it!"
Sorry - but the above simply doesn't fit within the bounds of reality. You are saying that this Agent sold NOTHING in twelve months? You ASSUME fees: you ASSUME costs - you offer nothing but MAYBES.
"3 - The agent in question also runs a small lettings business but with a handful of properties let and 2/3 still to let, the income from lettings will not plug the hole in the residential sales side."
Again - you are quoting YOUR ASSUMPTIONS as being gospel and have no meat to put on the bone.
"4 - Harwell Estates is a new start business and we have been trading for six months so we are not expecting to make a profit after only six months. We are however covering our operational costs (due to not having an office on the High Street) and we do not owe the bank any money but we will be making profit by month 9 and providing a salary by month 12."
Oh, matey. Not exactly an answer, is it. Agent 'X' in YOUR OPINION has made five-and-a-half grand in fees if they've got a wind behind them. Have you, or have you not, matched or bettered that?
If the answer is no - then YOU shouldn't be in business for EXACTLY the same reasons THEY shouldn't!
"I can only apologies for not getting back to you sooner but I have been rushed of my feet..."
Hmmm... you have a stock of EIGHTEEN properties; one of which is a rental. Of those, seventeen properties for sale, THREE appear to be under offer (17.6% of your register - a passable percentage I suppose...). Busy as a busy thing, I guess...
Incidentally - in the second paragraph of your response you state "We carry out valuations..."
Erm... WHY, then, are NINE of your properties - 52.9% of your available stock - 'priced' at "£Offers Invited"??
Okay - I'll give you a quid each.
At this figure, I am proceedable. I have cash available and can provide proof of funding. In fact, if you'd care to place another one on the market I'll just hand over the tenner in your (non-High Street) office and you can split it out of your petty cash tin.
Please let me know the vendors' responses. I have other properties that I am also considering so need a quick response.
We appear to be getting somewhere with this one...
It appears it is all down what we call our business model!
What the High Street agents hate the thought of is giving up the comfort zone of an office. Change is all around us and change will effect the way agents conduct their business.
If I'm an online agent (which I am not) how did I just manage to carry out a full market appraisal and win the instruction when I was up against three very reputable local agents...
Let me tell you - I attended the appointment at very short notice while the High Street agents checked their diary to see whether or not they were going shooting or drinking with their mate who is the local Solicitor!
Estate agency in North Yorkshire is changing with Harwell Estates!
www.harwellestates.co.uk
Instead of calling me a sleepy luddite how about you explain why any agent with premises, staff and a website can't offer exactly the same service as Adam is growing?
If an agent goes to the expense of all the fixed costs necessary to do a single valuation, what is the point of losing the instruction simply because it is not how one has traditionally done business?
Surely if ones own website is up to scratch and SEO policy is sound every local Agent stands a far better chance of winning an instruction like for like against Adam without any trouble at all in fact Adam should never ever be considered, IF the local agent can be bothered.
A typical sole agency sales nets about £2500, a lost instruction to Adam earns £0 but Adam earns???? (it isn't very transparent what he charges, all smoke mirrors, contradictions, clauses and options) So why not offer any potential lost instruction the same deal as Adam and hope to pick up something plus all the clauses and options that take Adams advertised fee to something in excess of £1100.
By my reckoning 1 online package deal that would otherwise be lost every month pays for a holiday. As soon as you start going head to head with Adam and his mates the only weapon in their armoury is to cut costs, they are on the back foot and have nowhere to turn, It won't take too many months to halt his claimed 40% increase in whatever (turnover or profit)
Am I missing something here?. The big difference between online agents and high street agents is high street/shop front. Surly as facelessagent.com gets a few quid and needs to employ say 3 members of staff the difference between renting office space for 3/4 desks and a shop front with space for 3/4 desks is to similar to warrant not being on the high street, especially if you take into account that your shop front is also part of you advertising. We have four offices in the southwest three of which the rents are less than £6,000 per year and two of those are zero rated for business rates. It makes no sense not to be on the High Street unless you are a one man band working from home.
Good luck to anyone starting a new business online or high street but why do we have to keep reading self promoting guff from hatched. And if you want predictions for your headlines then I predict "more online agents to fold in 2014"
"You are a bit of a buffoon sometimes..." Yup - I probably am, so you'll get no argument from me on that account, Mr Day.
BUT, at the end of the Day, Sir, your argument as to WHY you believe me to be a bit of a buffoon is as flawed as ever.
"We GREW between 2008 and 2010."
Erm... you started with bu99er all. ONE instruction was an exponential growth from nowt. TWO - you had a 100% growth on one.
WOW - qualifies for company of the year in my humble opinion.
Except that, if, at the rate you charge for your services, that took you longer than about three hours - your business plan would have been in deep doo-doo.
THEN, unfortunately for you, these stats start to work AGAINST you. ONE more instruction on top of your two - only 50% growth. Bu99er - back in the doo-doo. But of course, the growth HAS to be greater than that, when we are talking in multiples of one - or the doo-doo quickly engulfs the ears on its way over the scalp.
" In a falling market, people don't want to pay the high fees because they are achieving less for their asset, so look at ways to save money."
REALLY? If I was selling MY prized asset, I would want to entrust it with the person or company who could simply demonstrate that they had the best chance of selling it at the best price in the shortest timeframe. "Best price" equates to "save money", Mr Day, when the "best price" is in excess of the differential between two respective fees. I challenge you to disprove that.
"In a booming market, people realise how easy it is to sell houses and look for the most cost effective way to sell, bt still achieving top whack for their asset."
Same argument, Sir. ONLY if you or your counterparts can achieve a BETTER nett result than 'Agent X' is your offering "cost effective".
"I'm just saying that a booming market is better than a falling market for us. But that would be the case for every agent, wouldn't it?"
Not necessarily.
Don't get me wrong, Sir - I am actually NOT knocking your 'success'. You and your counterparts are filling a niche I the market that was created for you.
But you ARE a niche. Be the best at what you do.
Because during the hard times you are whinging about and 9 years before that I compound averaged over 37% year after year after year and now have enough of everything , that I do not need to apply motivational speaker, self promotion techniques a to try and get myself or my company noticed.
The reason you are getting a hard time is not because people like Peebee and I are inherently mean, it is because you are making a fool of yourself instead of putting your efforts into becoming credible. Sadly for you everything you have posted in defence of your self promotion is etched on the ether and now a search engine search for Adam Day is more negative than it is positive. You will notice that your Big 4 chums aren't jumping to defend your claim, they have their heads down and are working on building good businesses.
At the end of the day Adam you are also in competition with them too and if you think they won't use your daft internet rants and inconstancies against you then you really are stupid. If they have any sense they will point every single potential vendor at one of your daft claims and ask if that is the sort of bloke they want to trust with their instruction.
Don’t mind me though, you do it your way.
I’ve re-read all your posts George and would respectfully ask that you do the same with mine because as our arch enemy Adam succinctly puts it, “I don’t think you get it”
I’ve never predicted change over night, indeed my message is caution as we enter this tortoise and hare stage so whilst you appear to make some valid points you do so at the expense of a realisation. Past efforts were governed by the affecting parameters of that time and since then they have greatly eased and all but diminished due incredible and hopefully obvious advances. To continue to dismiss the online threat based on what went before and then to completely ignore the perfect storm of events we have today beggar’s belief. At the expense of repeating myself, the rate of progress we now enjoy is unheralded and the result is cheap easily available new technology, wifi etc. Add a serious shift in attitude toward online usage married to a new generation of smart phone centric buyers & sellers and we have a fantastically clear indication to a change in the way we do business going forward, one that can’t be ignored and yet you continue to do so.
The online agent is a living breathing entity, it’s happening right now gaining traction as we sit here debating its relevance and that alone should warrant re-considering your mandate, one that would have us believe it's all a figment of our imagination.
The wonderful irony is that I hope you’re right and we continue unabated but we clearly disagree so probably best we leave it there.
Hi Online In Scotland
The first point I would make is that agents don't accompany 'most' of the viewings down South. This is a myth. They will tell you they do, but they just don't in the vast majority of cases - I would say about 80% of viewings are done by the owners.
I think one of the fundamental issues, is that people don't understand what the definition of an 'online agent' is. All these old fashioned agents think that an online agent sits in their bedroom, accepts photos and descriptions via email, puts the viewers and sellers in touch with each other and charges a stupidly low fee. And other than the low fee, we don't do any of that. We fulfill all the normal estate agency functions. And those types of online estate agents don't have a place in the future of estate agency.
So, I don't see us as an online agent. We can't be an online estate agent - we have 7 offices around the country, we visit every single home that we market, we accompany every letting viewing...the list goes on.
I see us as a disruptive estate agent with more flexible fees, slicker and more streamlined processes, and more efficient systems in place, meaning we can handle a greater workload than an old fashioned estate agent.
But if people want to call us 'online estate agents', then so much the better, because if it differentiates us, then that's what I'm after.
Good luck!
I am an online agent in Scotland but what you guys do and charge down south are totally different and this is why I believe online agents are a real alternative in Scotland.
1) 95% of sellers in Scotland do their own vieiwings. The estate agents only really do repos / part exchange or empty property viewings. The vast majority of sellers do their own viewings anyway so there is no real resource required staff wise to do this.
Down south where agents do most of the viewings and are actively doing a sales job, I understand they do a sales job face to face.
2) In Scotland most estate agents charge an upfront fee of around £350-400 as a marketing fee. This must be paid upfront to covers signs/schedules etc etc and IS NOT refunded if not sold or moving agent. Then the average fee is still 1% with more agents now charging 1.5% as standard.
No from my view we do absolutely nothing different from these guys. Having run high st offices for 10 years the only argument high st agents put up as a defenece is they MAY have some local buyers but that is it.
Interested to hear your thoughts?
Ampersat
So what's your excuse for not growing at 40% each year since 2010?
Sorry that was me I, the early start meant I forgot the agreed protocol of sticking to one name.
Adam Day you are making excuses again. Traditional agents have been through the mill several times since 1985 (to stick with the Technology revolution in Estate Agency) You can't blame the world wide meltdown in the economies of the world as an excuse for your collective failures to grab a foothold in the market unless you are conceding that experience of previous hard times puts real Agents in better stead that the Jonnie come lately Online crowd. At a time when nothing was shifting surely your business model was the only one that was bringing in any cash. What did you do with it all?
You have previously proved that your grasp of financials is like Jackanory, a different story every day, so it is probably best you don't practice your spiel to the bank manager on us, we have already heard several versions of what you reckon and none of them really hang together.
The more you post, the more vexatious you become the better; it simply facilitates the discussion on how traditional agents can deal with this latest variation of a low fee start up, for that is all you are.
Every City ,Town and village has had people like you start up, shout how they are going to be No1 in 12 months and then they either fall in line with a fee structure that is established in the area or they fold and go away.
The chat feed that refused to go away...
@PeeBee You obviously did not read my last post!
Harwell Estates are not an online agent, we are a traditional agent who chooses not to operate from the High Street.
We carry out valuations, accompany viewings, provide feedback, meet our clients in their homes and review the activity and marketing and (@Al) we do not drive a little car covered in Strawberries - we operate in the Dales, therefore we all drive Range Rovers!
In answer to your questions...
1 - Having managed a network of 36 offices for a corporate company, I think I am well placed to comment on the running costs of an average High Street office.
2 - The agent in question has had three sales in their pipeline for the last 12 months and I keep a close eye on those sales which complete and those which abort. For the simple reason, if they abort, I offer the assistance of my company. I know they charge 1% (at best) and the average price of their stock is £180,000, therefore they make £1800 per exchange x 3 exchanges over six months = £5400. If you could run a High Street office for six months for £5400 everyone would be doing it!
3 - The agent in question also runs a small lettings business but with a handful of properties let and 2/3 still to let, the income from lettings will not plug the hole in the residential sales side.
4 - Harwell Estates is a new start business and we have been trading for six months so we are not expecting to make a profit after only six months. We are however covering our operational costs (due to not having an office on the High Street) and we do not owe the bank any money but we will be making profit by month 9 and providing a salary by month 12.
In summary, if you can provide a full estate agency service which your clients are happy with for a fraction of the cost, you have a successful business!
I can only apologies for not getting back to you sooner but I have been rushed of my feet...
PeeBee
I don't think you read my post correctly. We GREW between 2008 and 2010. You didn't.
We win in both markets. In a falling market, people don't want to pay the high fees because they are achieving less for their asset, so look at ways to save money.
In a booming market, people realise how easy it is to sell houses and look for the most cost effective way to sell, bt still achieving top whack for their asset.
Every agent in the land struggled in those years betwen 2008 and 2010. We didn't. We still grew.
I'm just saying that a booming market is better than a falling market for us. But that would be the case for every agent, wouldn't it?
You are a bit of a buffoon sometimes PeeBee
LOL - Mr Day - I LOVE it when you tee them up for us...
"...potential sellers will start to become disillusioned with the fees being charged when 'houses are selling themselves' (which is what all you agents will start to tell people) "Why pay thousands when it is THAT easy to sell houses", the vendors will think, and start to look at alternatives? The worst thing that could have happened for you guys, is for the market to start booming again..."
What a pity that, by the above, you clearly admit that you need a sea-change in the market to benefit yourselves.
You see - that is why the 'traditional' model will LONG outlive your flawed offering.
Boom... bust... flat - we survive in all seas. We don't wait for a roller to come then start paddling like a demented Duracell bunny in front of it. We swim INTO the waves head on - not simply hitch a ride on the best ones.
And if you guys couldn't - or simply didn't want to - hack that life, then I hope the easy-looking alternative you chose doesn't drown you quicker.
It isn't always what you can see on the surface - the currents below are what drag you down into oblivion, Sir.
To the last poster
Your seem to be confusing an online agent with Intermediary.
Do you know, people are more careful about choosing and selecting their car insurance than estate agent. A higher percentage of people that choose online agency have done so following some kind of informed decision
Please note I am not saying any type of model is better than the other in terms of performance and without trasparent statistics that is impossible to prove.
Re your final question : Do you really need that answered for you? I thought you were an estate agent!
Sorry Peebee ;-)
BU99ER!! Mr Day sneaked one in seconds before me.
Obviously, he was NOT the 'Last poster' I was seconding...
Last poster... HEAR, HEAR.
Harwell Estates - I'm still waiting for your response to some VERY reasonable questions...
Typical all blow and no show that you have inherited from the other onlines and Mr Realising Reality.
I don't think you get it.
Online agents started in 2005, with Housenetwork. Hatched were second in 2006.
The market then crashed at the end of 2007, start of 2008.
Up until the crash we (and I would hazard a guess at Housenetwork) had grown by around 40% in that single year. 2008-2010 put the skids on it a little, but we still grew by around 15% each year between 2008 and 2010. (Which is more than can be said of the old fashioned model, I dare say.)
But since 2010, we have started to grow at 40% per year again. And, I hope I am not talking out of turn, but I monitor my competition and I see that the others (even the mid range online agents I mentioned earlier) are also growing at around 30%-40% per year. Personally, I think that over the next 3-5 years, online agency will start to grow at a faster rate - perhaps 60% per year. And this is simply because potential sellers will start to become disillusioned with the fees being charged when 'houses are selling themselves' (which is what all you agents will start to tell people) "Why pay thousands when it is THAT easy to sell houses", the vendors will think, and start to look at alternatives? The worst thing that could have happened for you guys, is for the market to start booming again
But let's assume the trend of 40% growth continues (and there is absolutely no reason to believe it won't), then 2,700 instructions per month currently with online agents turns into 3,780 per month next year, 5,292 the year after, 7,408 in 2016, 10,372 in 2017, 14,521 instructions the following year and 20,329 in ONE MONTH in 2018 - you see where I'm going with this and i'm sure you can do the maths yourself. But even by 2018, that's 20% of the entire market.
So, if all those instructions are on with online agents by 2018, what are all you lot going to do then?
It's only 5 years away. Might be worth starting to plan now...?
You really are talking rubbish this time.
There is no nostalgia in retaining every successful and proven method of winning instructions and selling property and tweaking those methods to what is only a change in Advertising media.
If and it really is only an if, the property owning public want to buy a fee based, online advertising only service, then every traditional office based Agent can offer that without any more effort than deciding to.
All this talk of Agent won't do that it will decimate their business is simply nonsense. It makes sense to offer a service IF you are losing business to that service but proper and local estate Agency is not being dented enough to even warrant consideration of such simple and complimentary offering.
Adam Day and "The BIG FOUR" have taken 18 years to get to whatever tiny % of the market he claimed. With every SEO and social media opportunity to be viral within hours on the internet, why is this industry revolution taking so long?
2 years ago Rashid set out to change the selling world with Facebook, it hasn't happened.
8 years ago the crowd behind Autotrader set out to be the Autotrader of the property world, it hasn't happened?
Rightmove have enough cash and public awareness to be the mother of all Online Agencies, it hasn't happened!
Sit there and instead of side slipping and trying to paint George as a sleepy luddite try to work out why in 18 years of internet property exposure Estate Agency is essentially no different today than in 1986 when the first DOS or Wyse software systems were stuck into Agents' Offices.
If that is too taxing please explain why every single commentator for the past generation who has predicted this that and the other as the future of Estate Agency has been wrong. Not one of them has been right or even close to right so far. With the very best, leading and cutting edge innovation in the industry now just over 18 years introduced what all of a sudden is going to accelerate the change, Adam Day and the big 4?
One final question for you, this growing trend for online traffic, why is the factual result of that increased traffic a 50% reduction in the number of transacted sales from 121,000 per month in 2007 down to 61,000 now? Why are Agents spending 37.4% more on Internet advertising in the same period and only achieving half the number of sales? Surely if the Internet is the panacea for property sales that everyone in the business of online property is claiming why is it factually only 1:200th as efficient as Junk mail as a sales technique?
I can see that if I was Adam it would afford you an easy way out but alas you're going to have to find another exit.
You can deflect in perpetuity but it doesn't disguise the issue at hand. To that end, we can all mourn a bygone age but if we don't accept a new working environment then the business of agency advances in our absence. The mobilisation of our industry is a natural response to a growing trend in increased online traffic. To deploy a mindset of reverse gentrification is seminal friendly fire so by all means feel free to shoot yourself in the foot...
'The publics perception on ALL agents is that they are spivs and sharks but there is no alternative.'
Now there is a change that has happened whilst George Daws has been asleep, The corporates may not have wiped out the independents, but they have, without a doubt changed the reputation and lowered the ethical standards of what was once a highly professional industry.
I hope you don't mind if I call you Adam, I really can't be bothered to type out that long moniker to save your embarrassment
I am not just referring to the internet changing Estate Agency, Insurance companies, building societies, banks mobile phone companies all feature in the long, long list who have predicted that Agents will be no more ‘within 10 years’
The very first property portal was shown at PCS in October 1995 almost as soon as digital photography and colour laser jets started to really fuel the Windows versions of Estate Agent technology.
In spite of the changes in technology and the internet the way property is sold has not changed but it has allowed agents to become lazy and complacent. It will not be the Internet that forces the closure of Agencies, it will not be Online Agents but it will be competition who thinks smarter and works harder than the very vast majority of ‘Estate Agents’ who can do nothing until an applicant appears on their desktop.
"local reputation that wins profitable instructions"
Well I think it is It is vendors ignorance to alternatives, rather than loyalty and reputation that have prevented further migration to the low cost model.
My research has concluded most vendors go with traditional agents because "thats what you do when you sell"
The publics perception on ALL agents is that they are spivs and sharks but there is no alternative.
Of course this is not really true.
Aside from the verbose attempt at sarcasm you still hinge your point on local reputation. You flatter us all to insist we reign supreme on reputation when we have never enjoyed such giddy heights in the public forum and so it may have more to do with a lack of choice. Furthermore your short-sightedness would deny us any growth in an ever-competitive market and rather we trundle along blinkered to the real world content with our locale when business enterprise would encourage the exact opposite.
If a titan like Apple can offer itunes worldwide then every person who shops there will consider it local, local to them. It’s a principle you either fail to grasp or refuse to entertain. Your thinking seems clouded in misconception because a reputation is always there to be attained. I can only guess the likes of Blockbuster and HMV must have shared your thoughts…
Whilst your faith in our model is to be admired it’s ultimately flawed as you omit any form of contingency. Your rigid stance conflicts with a format requiring some flexibility and so over time, as the online agent grows and they eventually present a real alternative your ‘untouchable’ strategy implodes.
History is littered with failed attempts and the thought of where we’d be today had we given up only highlights how inane your view really is, time to broaden your mind and start addressing the possibility of serious change to agency in the near future.
'I do hate trying to discuss anything with the remedials'
Oh dear, getting a bit waspy just because there are people that have a different view to you, most unbecoming!
'for more than 25 years companies with more cash, credibility and business acumen than Adam Day have been trying to change traditional Estate Agency and have failed'
By my recollection, we've only really had the internet for about 15 years, and Rightmove started in 2000. There have already in that time been big changes to traditional agency, and as technology advances there will be more.
I'll repeat my question, where have you been for the last 27 years?
I do hate trying to discuss anything with the remedials, no matter how simple one makes the point if one catches them as they breathing in the point is lost due to concentrated effort, make it when they are breathing out and one is struggling with their joy of surviving another breath. Only if the point is made when the oxygen level is at is greatest is there any hope of comprehension.
How about ? for more than 25 years companies with more cash, credibility and business acumen than Adam Day have been trying to change traditional Estate Agency and have failed. Sure the corporates are since established and employ negotiators who allow applicants to buy a property they (the applicants) have sourced themselves on the internet or For Sale boards but it is local reputation that wins profitable instructions. The corporates struggle because some head office expert dictates policy and therefore local reputation and the online agents offer nothing but much cheapness (innit) With no tangible presence, no local reputation or loyalty there really is nothing an online agency offers that an office based local agency can’t offer cheaper or better, if they were minded to.
George Daws xFNAEA - re your 'absence' - thought as much! ;o)
I respect of your welcome (or not, as the case may be...) - I would suggest that without your opinions and debating skills, and those of the wardy, Jonnie, AoS etcs of the profession then this site is nothing other than an ego-massaging platform for those who claim to want to 'improve' what you guys already do very well and successfully.
With regard to the 'HPCers' - I know that certain ones are just in it for the argument - however I would suggest that rantnrave and his similar-minded compatriots offer a generally interesting slant on the situation... and whilst I don't subscribe to their way of thinking, it is good to have it offered forward as we can then see what we may be up against in the thought processes of some prospective buyers.
In a similar train of thought - awareness of what the Hendrys of this world are prostituting round as being gospel is a must-know.
Knowledge, GD, is power as you know. ;o)
@George Daws xFNAEA
'my guess is your town still has the very same few characters selling property as it did 27 years ago when Prudential, General Accident and Black Horse were going to wipe us Independents off the face of the High Street.'
Where have you been for the last 27 years then? yes, those names have gone, but we now have Haart, Connells, WHB, Abbotts etc, and most of their staff were not even a twinkle in their parents eyes 27 years ago!
I am not surprised to hear of this ONLINE LETTING AGENTS are the next generation. High Street Agents will not be able to compete due to their large overheads!
www.aardvarkspropertyandmanagement.co.uk
Gearge Daws xFNAEA
“If there is a real public appetite for a cut price Internet listing only, fee but no guarantee service”
Even in it’s most simplistic form we have to recognise and concede that online agents exist as a direct result of a real public appetite. The fact that they’re gathering pace even with corporates would suggest the public aren’t the only ones with an appetite for them.
“Then every astute Agency owner can simply start offering the service they offer”
It’s an option but as someone pointed out earlier, such a move could cannibalise sales so it’s an option lacking acumen and to most, an act of desperation. Not what you’d expect from an astute agent.
“my guess is your town still has the very same few characters selling property as it did 27 years ago”
27 years is a long time but even so it’s foolhardy to imply this could be the case for the next 27 given the recent changes in legislation, cheap available new technology and again as someone pointed out earlier, a new generation of buyers & sellers bred on tight fiscal regulation. This is progress at an accelerated pace unlike the last 27 years and it can’t fail to impact the high street agent.
“The wide cast inherent in Online Agency means that reputation is less important”
It’s difficult to interpret this because ‘reputation’ is seen as the antithesis of any agent but also because the very nature of online is its availability. The three w’s at the beginning of our website shouldn’t need explaining nor should the opportunity online agents have to appeal a bigger audience all the while, building that so called reputation.
“The more entrants into Online Agency there are the greater the competition and the lower the fee”
A comment easily attributable to us but yet our fees appear constant across the industry. The worry though is that you’re right, then it’s a big win for the consumer and as more business is lost online so their model can absorb the loss.
As ‘Hound’ points out these changes are gradual but they are happening all the same and yet we still continue to dismiss it?
Knowing how much some of those that visit this site like their figures and statistics, here's a couple for you to consider from the British Retail Consortium.
UK Online (non food) sales up year to date by 12.1%
UK High Street footfall down year to date by 2.7%
Granted, these figures are not a 'seismic effect' at the moment, but they are an on-going trend and it's not clear to me why so many seem to think that agency will be totally exempt from this trend. As I said before, we need to look outside our own industry and react to what is going on in the wider world.
If these trends continue as I'm sure they will, the High Street will become a lonely place!
Thank you for the welcome Peebee, I am fairly sure that there will be a few who won't be so pleased to have me back.
I have to admit I have been here and posting all the while but George is the moniker I keep for genuinely challenged folk like the HPC crew, Jonathon Davies, Peter Hendry and now Adam Day.
We have both seen vexatious predictions of doom for Agency, we have both heard bonkers ideas to overhaul the way we do business, but Ros will keep publishing stories like this because every Monday, Wednesday and Friday she has to publish new news. That does not mean there is anything credible in these amateur attempts at self promotion.
Adam Day will think himself clever and important that he is getting some minor attention but just 20 minutes with Dale Carnegie he would understand why he would do well to keep his predictions to himself or employ a professional copywriter.
In other news, Spicer have just joined AM as a gold member.
wb FBA
Laydeez and gentlepees - it is our pleasure to welcome the return of Mr George Daws xFNAEA!
You've been missed, Sir. Don't do it again. ;o)
The article shows little insight and understanding of our industry. CPRs mean that budget intermediates can't offer private sellers ancilliary services to make the add on pounds for other services.
For AM to take out RM or Zoopla they'd need mass public awareness and that would likely take £100m and I understand they are going head on with £3.6m
Online vs traditional. Well I dont know many traditional agents who aren't online as well.
And RM and Zoopla already allow private landlords in to let their properties for £0 by the budget intermediates taking the referencing fees in England and Wales. These private ads under the budget marketeers logo sit right next to agents adverts.
Ros Renshaw isn't daft, her job is to promote EAT and LAT and the Minnie the Minx side of her character ensures that a vexatious stories like this will get an airing. Without the posts and replies these non news stories are designed to engender they become nothing more than 'Baldrick I reckons'
Adam Day and the other self appointed big 3 ( I did chuckle at that bit) are no genuine threat to Estate Agency professionals. If there is a real public appetite for a cut price Internet listing only , fee but no guarantee service. Then every astute Agency owner can simply start offering the service they offer from 8:30 this morning; decide on the price, give the negs a spiel and away you go. “Don’t come back without either a proper instruction or one of these money for old rope, cheapskate/ gullible vendor listings”
In your long career you will have seen start ups come and go but my guess is your town still has the very same few characters selling property as it did 27 years ago when Prudential, General Accident and Black Horse were going to wipe us Independents off the face of the High Street.
Adam Day has shown us through his various posts that Online Agency is the only sort of Agency he can hope to be successful in; his inability to remember salient points he claimed previously (very different thing to a salient fact)means that in a intimate and local Agency environment his reputation would very soon proceed him. The wide cast inherent in Online Agency means that reputation is less important and as with surveys, conveyancing and EPC’s he is in a race with the others in his sector to be the first one down to free, in order to win business. The more entrants into Online Agency there are the greater the competition and the lower the fee.
Good luck to you Mr Day, please post some more and fill the internet with a few more quotable contradictions that will be used against you and the other Big 4 when business savvy Agents decide to pull the rug from under you.
Mr Day
So - from one 'usual suspect' to another...
From the opening story:
"...currently, online agents have a market share of between 2% and 5%, having “grown from literally nothing just eight years ago”."
That's a wide spread there, is it not. The difference between the higher and lower figure being TWO AND A HALF TIMES greater. If I went to my Partners and said that my business plan was to sell somewhere between one hundred and two hundred and fifty properties in the coming year, I'd get, at best, sacked.
And I'd deserve it.
Then - to your post below.
"And, the 4 of us take on around 600 properties a month between us.
That is 0.6% of the entire market in England & Wales of properties listed on RM in one month. Between 4 agents."
Hmmm... okay - tell me, then, what percentage of the entire listings market do the 'big 4' HIGH STREET Agents take on? You seem to have all the relevant figures at your fingertips - so that one shouldn't faze you at all!
"A high street agent would need around 30-40 office to deal with this sort of volume."
So... WHAT PERCENTAGE of the Estate Agency industry fit into that category - 30+ offices? How many companies in total? (And - just to add some spice - I'd like that broken down into regional brands of corporates/'independent's, please...)
"So, based on my calculations, that is 2,900 properties every single month going on with online agents, out of around 100,000 that go on Rightmove every month (in Oct anyway!). And that 100k includes multi-listings. So, therefore, there might only be 90k that are actually new on the market to RM each month.
Therefore, that is a 3.2% share."
Erm... the figure you quote (YOUR GUESSTIMATE...) represents potentially three-and-a-bit percent of the NETT listings in a month, when excluding YOUR GUESSTIMATE AGAIN of multi-listings.
BUT... you cannot remove ten percent of the gross figure as you have done, as this implies - TOTALLY WRONGLY - that EVERY listing taken on by the onlines is both NEW and SOLE.
An OOPS moment there, methinks? I suggest you're trying to stretch the statistics a little too far there, Sir. Feel free, however, to prove me wrong. Note the word PROVE.
It's your ball - if you want to play with it in a big crowded playground you've got to learn to play fair.
Or you'll get your @$$ kicked - and your ball for that matter.
Like I said earlier, Mr Day.
Bring it on.
I don't know where is the problem with having less agents windows, it does not mean that you would have less estate agents or that they would offer a "lite" services.
It is sometimes hard to justify a high street window when most of your enquiries come the internet.
Looking at France, a lot of agents have now moved from the high street, they work from home, go and get their mandates, respond to their enquiries do all their particulars online, and go on viewings with their prospects.
As long as you have a computer and a phone I don't see why you need to have a high street office. The quality of the service you offer clients is exactly the same, perhaps even better has you would not have the pressure of paying your office rent.
Perhaps the UK is not ready for this but this is already happening in other countries and I don't see why this would not and should not happen in the UK.
@AdamDay @Hound Good comments guys!
It would be nice to see this drawn out chat feed end in a positive way and with all understanding that there will be room for only the best agents, be it online, High Street or Personal Agent. I regard Harwell Estates as a Personal Agent model rather than online and for those who are interested it is just me and my first (Hopefully of many) Area Partner, who covers an exclusive area of North Yorkshire.
We launched from a cold start six months ago with £1500 and another £1000 in the kitty and so far we have covered our costs each month and we are gaining traction and taking some market share within our area. We have no plans to go head to head with the big online agents or multi branch networks but we do intend to give the average local under performer a good run for their money.
Whether you like my brand or not the benefits of not having to run an office was our choice and makes the difference between break even, profit and loss.
I personally think we have done bloody well so far but take a look for yourself - comments are welcome.
Turn over is vanity, profit is sanity and Harwell Estates are here to stay.
But you won't ever find us on the High Street...
www.harwellestates.co.uk
'Usual Suspect' Thanks Adam, does that mean after 25 years I've arrived :)
and a well thought out comment 'Worth a Thought' and making a similar point to my own, although I don't think it will take 20 years. The simple fact is that we have to adapt to changing circumstances, not just in our industry, but in the environment around us. If the Centre for Retail Research report I quoted earlier is to be believed, the High Street may well become a lonely place!
You mentioned Spicerhaart, they are already there of course with iSold, although in limited locations at the present time, and of course in typical Spicerhaart style are very expensive, but if they were to roll it out countrywide, with the resources they have.............
Perhaps I'm answering my own question and the reason some get so hot under the collar is that Adam is actually the wise man who is ahead of the game, and they are afraid of being left behind.
I'm actually in the process of reviewing our business model for the company I work for, and I'm looking very closely at something similar to the online model. May have a job convincing those above though, who probably hold similar views to many who have posted here!
Can somebody clarify what is an online agent.
Adam has an office above a shop on the high street.
Adam's staff go out to conduct viewings.
20 of his 31 available lets are available within 5-10 miles of his office. Not sure about his other offices
Not sure if how he has his tenant fees advertised complies with ASA rulings.
So what is an online agent. Do you have to advertise your properties online only? Not have an office on the ground floor of the high street? Does online agent just stand for not able to sell themselves on service rather than price?
Fragmenting our services and allowing the vendor more control over marketing will inevitably erode our eco system. Currently the online model is just an alternative but the major difference is price. Its hard to argue service when we all say we're great but our fees differ and its even harder to argue when those services are laid bare to an audience that doesn't fully understand it's intricacies. The implications are self evident that when placed side by side, price will out and that's where the minds of vendors could be won.
It may well be a slow process but is that just because of brand awareness? Rumour has it that this is the way forward for haart but if any other major high street chain were to convert, say KFH or Acorn it should warrant our attention. I think we're fortunate to be in the eye of the storm and this time should be spent fortifying our own business but ultimately, as incorporating both models will cannibalise sales so it will come down to a choice.
We'll always have a role because they'll always be vendors who appreciate a traditional service but as we usher in a new generation of home owners on the back of large deposits and regulated financing bolstered by smart phones and free coffee shop wifi, it's not such a stretch that they won't be the cost concience tech savvy ones heading for the net.
I love being a high street agent but I'm pragmatic enough to realise that how we trade today cannot sustain the next 20 years of evolved buyers and sellers. As we provide more online tools so we make ourself less relevant in the flesh creating a sentient market, so be mindful we're not left behind a la Nokia and Blackberry...
Hello everyone...
*Nods in the direction of the usual suspects - PeeBee, Wardy, Jonnie, AceOfSpades & Hound*
Trevor, anyone will tell you that from my previous posts, that we do take on 100's of properties every month - I've always been pretty open about our figures. Yes, RM fees keep going up, but then I crank up the volume a little and we continue to pay it. Not a problem.
But I (roughly) know how many Emoov, Housenetwork, Housesimple are taking on - we are the 'big 4'
And, the 4 of us take on around 600 properties a month between us.
That is 0.6% of the entire market in England & Wales of properties listed on RM in one month. Between 4 agents.
A high street agent would need around 30-40 office to deal with this sort of volume.
Then you have all the 'middle ranking' online agents (I won't name names), but they are all taking on around 80 a month each - there's around 15 of those online agents. So that's another 1200 properties on online agents' books.
There are around 250 online agents in total (the rest covering just one town or a slightly larger area - i.e. not the whole country), according to my calculations
Each of those small town-only online agents will be taking on maybe 10 a month each, but let's say 5 a month each. Not many. But when you multiply that by 220 agents, that's another 1100 properties going on with online agents.
So, based on my calculations, that is 2,900 properties every single month going on with online agents, out of around 100,000 that go on Rightmove every month (in Oct anyway!). And that 100k includes multi-listings. So, therefore, there might only be 90k that are actually new on the market to RM each month.
Therefore, that is a 3.2% share. Of the entire market. I have given myself a cushion of between 2% and 5%, which I think is very fair, so as not to be over/under egging the situation.
Someone posted earlier about how 2-5% market share was pretty poor going. But not across the whole country it's not! Of course, that would be bad if they were operating in one town from a high street premises.
And in any case, we're not online agents. We're just estate agents, that do things slightly differently, and without ripping people off.
Don't worry though. You're not all going to go out of business in the next year or 2, it will take a little bit more time. For someone to say 'Why hasn't happened yet?'...Well, Amazon started in 1995. The first time I bought anything off Amazon was in 2012, so it takes a bit of time to convince everyone to change their habits - us online agents have only been around for between 4 and 8 years. But when people do change their habits...
If anyone knows about the 'laws of diffusion of innovation', then you will know that the tipping point is at 16% (if you haven't seen about this law, Google it). So there's still 3 or 4 years yet chaps.
But it's coming...
You can't milk a cow or shoe a horse online. You can advertise a property online but that is not the same as selling it. A set of keys with which to view the property is not going to be handed to potential customers through their monitors.
@NUARME
You are crazy if you think they are taking on 100s a month, look at their stock level and their sold properties, duuhh!!
As the owner of one of the original FSBO that changed to online agent I can honestly say that there is so much work involved for the small fee its not worth it, my RM fee was £13k some months, my Z fee was £3k, that was for 600 properties, it's a joke, you need constant stock coming in to pay the portals, the business is worth nothing at the end of the day because you would really take over a business with immediate debt of £16k every month, and when the winter comes the sales stop, but... the fees don't, in fact they increase!
Oooh, nothing like a little feature about online agents to get everyone going, and we've got two today!
In our little corner of East Anglia, there are now two high street travel agents, and nine operating from off the high street locations, a few years back, there were several florists in town, now there is one, but a quick search of yell reveals six offering an online service.
The Centre for Retail Research published a report earlier this year predicting that the number of high street stores will decline by around 80,000 in the next 4-5 years, why? oh yes, the internet.
I still don't fully understand why, if online agents are no threat to the conventional model everyone gets so hot under the collar!
In my 25 years in agency I've seen prospective buyers requirements change from wanting outside space to inside space, why, society has changed, people do not go out in the same way they used to, all our entertainment is in the home, and shopping rapidly going in the same direction.
Perhaps it's time to get our heads out of the sand!
Harwell estates
Interesting bold statement from you, pushing aside established branches for your online model. Just been looking at your site and you claim to offer "personal" and "unrivalled customer service" across the UK - how do you that then, I am assuming you don't get in your little strawberry covered car and carry out an accompanied viewing in Plymouth do you?
You also state to use "the powers of modern technology" but you only advertise on RM and have 700 Twitter followers - not what you would call ground breaking is it!
'Harwell Estates':
"How can a High Street agent (no names mentioned but trading in my area) who has only had three completions in six months cover the average running cost (£10,000) of their office?"
1. You know they have only completed on three transactions in six months HOW?
2. You know that these alleged three completions don't cover their operating costs HOW?
3. You know that the Agency has NO other source of income generation HOW?
4. In the same six month period your income generation has been HOW MUCH?
Boy o' boy - I can't wait for your answers...
@PeeBee....yet again a 'like' button is desperately needed!
Hmmm...
Interesting factoid - 'NUARME' is, in fact, an anagram of MANURE.
I trust this explains a lot... ;o)
Rubbish. My experience is of similar length and i've never met a negotiator that has done more than steer a conversation and avoid a few ditches here and there. You can't force people to pay what they can't afford, that's a fact, 99% of deals were going to happen before the agent stepped in, it was me or you that approached the agent, they only put the message forward. Seriously, you're mad to think agents are such magicians.
The battle between the High Street agent and the online agent continues...
What about those who sit nicely in the middle, those who offer the services of a High Street agent but choose not to operate from a High Street premises. Those who are open 7 days a week between 8am and 8pm and not five and a half days a week at best.
The best online agents will continue to thrive as will the best High Street agents, but those in the middle will be the slayers of the average High Street agent.
How can a High Street agent (no names mentioned but trading in my area) who has only had three completions in six months cover the average running cost (£10,000) of their office?
The answer is, they can't...
While the battle of the giants continues we are happily chipping away at the local market share while spending a fraction of the cost doing so!
www.harwellestates.co.uk
I buy and sell for a living and have done so for the last 10 years.
I have bought from the Online boys,easy to push, I always sell via the real agents on the High Street as I simply want the best price, you will seldom get that from the Online boys.
Win-win for the public then - it's a shame it's taken so long for you to cotton on! Amazing considering the amount of negativity you estate agents have had over the years. Thank god for entrepreneurs!
funny think is most good high street agents could afford to charge the same as a good on line agent - I have 5 branches up north, i've done the maths and it would work, this will wipe out the 'on-line' agents - so if or when online agents start eating into market share significantly on local levels - high street agents will fight back
You lot actually have it wrong. Online estate agency is here to stay. Yes Rightmove and Zoopla's pricing has gone up but so it has for all of you. Legally the portals can't charge online agents more, whilst they may try, in the long run they can't due to unfair competition laws. The OFT is keeping an eye.
The reason why many agents are trying and failing with Online models is that the market is becoming much more competitive, new companies have little chance without a large investment to gain a foothold. Whilst there are 40+ names of online estate agents out there, this number is diminishing not due to the model not working but due to the fact that it is becoming more difficult or even impossible to gain foothold.
The likes of Hatched, Emoov, Housesimple, Housenetwork, they're taking on 100's of clients every month. It wil come down to just 3 or 4 names. This is how online works in the long run.
And remember Stelios is coming to town, money is starting to poor into the industry. Change is coming. Time to brush up on your service quality chaps. Make yourself worth paying for. If you charge a premium price, which you all do, then it needs to be a premium service you offer.
Wardy - this is were a 'like' button is needed. Spot on with your post.
There is a sector of every market who thrive for budget services; estate agency is no different. A 5% market share is close to being maxed out in my opinion. It won't raise much higher than that.
In the last "8 years" the internet has matured and evolved massively. What else do you possibly need from the www to see the demise of traditional agents? Why is it not already happening?
There are so many online agents closing up, surely they should be thriving based on Adam's 'findings'.
Adam, you were totally correct about the vat pricing in B2C transactions (nobody can dispute that) but your provocative ramblings are very bitter. Would you care to disclose your formula for arriving at your above conclusions?
Nothing but drivel to attract propsective, mindless, naive and low budget vendors.
@the online agent
I'm afraid you literally have no idea what you are talking about.
For the record your RM account manager thinks your an even bigger jackass than I do.
Don't think Rightmove will throw online agents out. Why ? Because we pay more that most single branch pai in 5 years per year.
Our rightmove fee is £2600 per month. So why whould they throw me out if I am paying 6/7 times what you pay? I am the equivelant of Rightmove getting 7 new offices every month and my Rightmove A/C manange loves me far more than you one office punters. And with some corporates paying as little as £50 per month per branch (yes you are I have seen the figures) Rightmove embrace us rather than hate us !!!
I am getting extremely bored with the repeated poor (at best) content EAT are putting out. Maybe you need to publish less often but with better quality content, this is a ridiculous story and the Sarah Beany one is not much better.
Come on EAT, raise your game!
Wait - a more sensible quote from Adam
"Wibble"
"“I also predict that some big names in retail may try to become intermediaries due to the new changes to the Estate Agents Act"
Who? Tesco perhaps ;)
Agents mutual is a great idea. It will dilute the number of agents advertising on RM or Zoopla as AM agents will have to choose.
Adam
"“Recent government legislation changes to the Estate Agents Act and the Property Misdescriptions Act will result in more private house sale sites."
Why?
"And, if they cannot find buyers, they do not have a business!"
No Sh*t Sherlock
"a market share of between 2% and 5%, having “grown from literally nothing just eight years ago"
I have opened cold start offices that have generated more than this within 12 months.
2-5% in 8 years is bloody awful.
Hi Adam,
Ill nip and get a pot of white paint to white wash the windows when you online boys finally start to nick all my landlords and vendors
4 operate((d) locally charging very little on top of all the 'national' online offerings like yours, 2 have gone pop and one has just gone into a high street unit so its not been all that yet despite lots of other online stuff booming, books, music, holidays etc etc
Im so happy I've got time before you kill me off, thank you for going gently on me so far, but whys it taking so long though and can you hold back until ive had time to retrain as an online EA and take on the whole world like you are?
Jonnie
@EW -your blog is superb - thanks for the link. Says it all really
Folks....this site is about provoking reaction and therefore increase its content so they will publish anything that will cause reaction - just as todays
I don't know if anyone else would agree, but we have seen a large drop off from internet and portal enquiries over the last year or so, with more people coming and visitng our office and picking up the phone again.
Won't deny that the web is a great tool for showcasing properties, but if agents were going to have come off the high street, they would have started doing it by now.
The internet boom days have gone now Adam, unless you have created Facebook or Twitter, which you haven't.
I wrote a blog on this subject and reiterate the fact that the online estate agents predicting our demise had lower web rankings than we had achieved. 80% of our leads were generated on line, so my question was - "who is the online agent?" - they only difference was that online agents ONLY do business on line. So why is that better?
In case anyone is interested, I have copied the URL of my 'online' blog.
http://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/news_features/Eric-Walker-Blog
Interesting figures.
In my patch just under 300 for sale with just one house (been on for 10 weeks so far) listed a budget online agency. Not quite 5% market share here.
I've got to say I don't understand the column inches this guy gets, wouldn't be so bad if he came up with anything credible.
I can just imagine him scribbling something down with a biro on the back of an envelope a saying to the wife ''here, chuck that at EAT, some idiot will tweet it''
Another load of tosh. Slow news day was it?
When are you going to stop giving free press to these people with their constant false statements and promises.
Anyone making predictions for 2020 is a moron anyway, I've yet to meet anyone that can predict the future. Although, if you could, I would suggest the prediction that the above is nonsense would be the most accurate.
@Mark, well, they do already charge agents who market properties outside of their area DOUBLE so who knows what they can do! Is that fair?? Expanding your business they charge you double!!
Mr Day - I repeat my previous offer to you.
Bring.
It.
On.
I'M waiting for you...
TOTAL CRAP - ADAM WHO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you really think that 6 weeks is enough time for us to forget how anything you have to say needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Before anyone takes this lastest and so obviously vexatious press release too seriously re-visit his last one where Adam Day managed to contradict and confuse himself into exhaustion and embarrassment.
Any update on your commercials Adam? have you crunched that calculator like a demented woodpecker and come up with any figures that hold water?
Adam Day AND Sarah Beeney ? Perhaps a re-launch as OAT - online agent times ?
Paul, I think you'll find the major portals will be guilty of anti-competitive actions if they try to ban agents simply because they don't have a 'high street office'. Perhaps they should all be required to drive Bentleys as well? Will you stop at nothing to prevent the demise of your outdated practices?
The portals will NEVER let online agents mess with their income stream. How does this guy repeatedly get to air his views and attempt to be taken seriously?
And what exactly is an online agent?
We have 3 branches and we are on every UK portal AND we have a High Street location, so we are BOTH.
Back to bed Adam
Thinking about it, what if the portals did see online agents as a threat to their main income, they could stop listing them unless you have a high street office, then you would be tits up!
More rubbish from Adam, why do you publish this? Rightmove prices will wipe out online agents as there is just not enough profit in it, loads of OEAs have gone tits up.